What’s the best class ever?
Cue up the grainy highlights. It’s a good time for draft anniversaries.
It’s the 50-year anniversary of when Wilt Chamberlain was drafted, and the 40th anniversary of when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was plucked from the college ranks. It’s the 25th anniversary of Michael Jordan heading to the stage, although he did keep in his tongue.
It must be said that, while any draft with Chamberlain can’t be overlooked, there wasn’t much depth after he was a territorial pick. The only other Hall of Famer to go in 1959 was Bailey Howell, No. 2 in the regular phase.
Abdul-Jabbar’s 1969 draft had even less depth, producing no other Hall of Famers. After the big fellow went No. 1, the next best player taken was seven-time All-Star Jo Jo White.
As for 1984, that’s quite another story. While Jordan was the No. 3 pick, three other Hall of Famers are draft classmates, top pick Hakeem Olajuwon, No. 5 Charles Barkley and No. 16 John Stockton.
“I think our class is pretty impressive,’’ Barkley said. “I think ours would go up against many (classes).’’
The 1984 class no doubt ranks among the greatest in NBA history. But is it the best ever?
Barkley didn’t want to go that far. But Barkley was asked how the class stacks up against the star-studded 1996 group, which is looking even better after Lakers guard Kobe Bryant just was handed the NBA Finals MVP.
“I like our chances,’’ Barkley said.
Barkley also was asked how the 1984 class fares against the 2003 group, headed by LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.
“I like our chances,’’ Barkley said.
At least one member of the 2003 class might disagree. That would be Carmelo Anthony, who helped put himself closer to the category of James and Wade by leading Denver to the Western Conference final.
“We laugh and joke about it, that we’re the best class or one of the best classes,’’ Anthony said.
It seems the only solution is an all-time draft playoff. Take the top eight draft classes in NBA history, and match them against each other, with the winner crowned.
One concern, though, is how to best measure a draft class. How should superstar players be weighed alongside overall depth of the draft? And what about players selected in the late 1960s and early 1970s who played initially in the ABA?
Here are some ground rules. There are five players on the court at once, so the top five players from each draft class will provide the primary weight.
As for ABA players, Dan Issel dropped to the eighth round in the 1970 NBA draft because he already had committed to the ABA. Issel counts since he was coming directly from college.
On the other hand, Julius Erving was drafted No. 12 in 1972 after he had played one ABA season (Erving wasn’t eligible in 1971 due to being an underclassman). Sorry, Erving doesn’t count because he already had been an American professional.
One other rule. Players drafted more than once (such as Elgin Baylor in 1956 and 1958 and Sam Jones in 1956 and 1957 only count toward the last draft in which they were selected).
Here are the eight draft classes battling it out, with the top five players listed in the order selected:
1950
The class is headlined by four Hall of Famers and a guy who played in eight All-Star Games that nobody remembers. Only three other draft classes (1965, 1970 and 1984) can claim four or more Hall of Fame players.
Paul Arizin, Hall of Famer (territorial pick).
Bob Cousy, Hall of Famer.
Larry Foust, eight All-Star Games.
George Yardley, Hall of Famer.
Bill Sharman, Hall of Famer.
1962
The class has three Hall of Famers to its credit. And old-timers are working to get Chet Walker a ticket himself one day to Springfield, Mass.
Dave DeBusschere, Hall of Famer (territorial pick).
Jerry Lucas, Hall of Famer (territorial pick).
Zelmo Beaty, two-time NBA and three-time ABA All-Star.
John Havlicek, Hall of Famer.
Walker, seven-time All-Star.
1965
Four Hall of Famers head this class, although Bill Bradley barely counts since he’s enshrined primarily because of his college exploits. There’s also good depth, with Bob Love beating out Tom Van Arsdale, Dick Van Arsdale and Jerry Sloan for the fifth spot.
Bradley, Hall of Famer (territorial pick).
Gail Goodrich, Hall of Famer (territorial pick).
Rick Barry, Hall of Famer.
Billy Cunningham, Hall of Famer.
Love, three-time All-Star.
1970
This class holds the mark for most Hall of Famers with six. The forgotten one is Issel, plucked in the eighth round by Detroit. Other draftees were impressive, including Rudy Tomjanovich, Charlie Scott and Geoff Petrie, co-Rookie of the Year with Dave Cowens. Since we’re not leaving any Hall of Famers on the bench, six are listed here.
Bob Lanier, Hall of Famer.
Pete Maravich, Hall of Famer.
Cowens, Hall of Famer.
Calvin Murphy, Hall of Famer.
Tiny Archibald, Hall of Famer.
Issel, Hall of Famer.
1984
This group includes the greatest player ever in Jordan and two of the greatest ever at their positions in center Olajuwon and point guard Stockton. There’s not a clear-cut fifth guy to stand around in awe and watch the others, but Kevin Willis gets the nod over Otis Thorpe on seniority since he played 21 NBA seasons to a mere 17 for Thorpe.
Olajuwon, Hall of Famer.
Jordan, Hall of Famer.
Barkley, Hall of Famer.
Willis, one-time All-Star.
Stockton, Hall of Famer.
1985
While overshadowed by 1984, this class still produced a pretty nice encore. It includes three Hall of Famers and Chris Mullin, who eventually could be enshrined.
Patrick Ewing, Hall of Famer.
Mullin, five-time All-Star.
Detlef Schrempf, three-time All-Star.
Karl Malone, Hall of Famer.
Joe Dumars, Hall of Famer.
1996
Four from this class are certain to get into the Hall of Fame. For the fifth spot, there was ample competition in this very deep draft, with Jermaine O’Neal getting the nod over five other players to have made All-Star Games (Peja Stojakovic, Stephon Marbury, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antoine Walker and Zydrunas Ilgauskas).
Allen Iverson, 10-time All-Star, one MVP.
Ray Allen, nine-time All-Star.
Kobe Bryant, 11-time All-Star one MVP.
Steve Nash, six-time All-Star, two MVPs.
O’Neal, six-time All-Star.
2003
This group is just getting started. James has been named MVP and won a scoring title. Wade has a championship and a scoring crown. Anthony and Chris Bosh are full-fledged stars. For the fifth spot, David West nudged out Josh Howard since West pays more attention during the national anthem.
James, five-time All-Star, one MVP.
Anthony, two-time All-Star.
Bosh, four-time All-Star.
Wade, five-time All-Star.
West, two-time All-Star.
Here’s a look at the all-time draft showdown:
QUARTERFINALS
1950 vs. 1996
Cousy vs. Nash. Is that not a point-guard matchup for the ages? But even though Yardley was the first NBA player ever to score 2,000 points in a season, the guys from the Studebaker generation don’t have enough offense. Winner: 1996.
1962 vs. 2003
There’s great team play from consummate pros DeBusschere, Lucas and Havlicek, players who were on nine of the 12 title teams between 1962 and 1973. But James’ gang has too much talent. Winner: 2003.
1965 vs. 1984
Barry and Jordan get into a shootout. But, in the end, the championship experience of Jordan and Olajuwon (eight titles between them) are too much. Winner: 1984.
1970 vs. 1985
With the 5-foot-9 Murphy and the 6-1 Archibald, the little guys aren’t to be denied. Malone is tough, but this time the “Mailman” doesn’t deliver. Winner: 1970.
SEMIFINALS
1970 vs. 1996
Iverson shows up late. Nevertheless, there’s just too much firepower from Iverson, owner of four scoring titles, and Bryant, who has two. Winner: 1996.
1984 vs. 2003
It’s Jordan vs. James. James will want to replay this battle of elite classes in a decade, but, for now, the class of 1984 is as dominant as Big Brother is in George Orwell’s novel. Winner: 1984.
FINALS
1984 vs. 1996
In the end, how can one pick against any team with Jordan on it? Well, any team besides the Washington Wizards of 2001-02 and 2002-03. The 1996 class has more depth, but it’s hard to top the star power of Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley and Stockton, who combined for seven MVPs, 23 All-NBA first team selections, 45 All-Star Game selections and seven Olympic gold medals. Winner: 1984.
Speaking of Olympic golds, did we mention 1984 draftees combined to win 14 additional gold medals? That would be one each from Sam Perkins, Alvin Robertson, Vern Fleming, Leon Wood and Jeff Turner from the 1984 basketball games and nine from track legend Carl Lewis.
Yes, Lewis was drafted in the 10th round in 1984. But let’s not go overboard. Bruce Jenner was selected in the seventh round in 1977, but that doesn’t help that draft class.
NMQ Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 6:46 am
LOL. Interesting. =))
Earl Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 7:57 am
1996 should win
mike d Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 8:02 am
tough call….i think at the end of the day ‘96 and ‘03 may be the best two classes…..but as of right now i can see ‘84….arguably the best G (jordan) PF (Barkley) and C (Hakeem) of all time…
Lance Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:05 am
THE MAIN MATCH UP PROBLEM FOR THE 96′ CLASS WOULD BE THE JERMAINE O’NEAL ON THE DREAM. THAT’S WHY I WOULD HAVE JERMAINE COME OFF THE BENCH AND REPLACE CAMBY.
JORDAN AND KOBE WOULD BE A SLUG FEST BUT I FAVOR JORDAN BY ALOT(BECAUSE OF THE JORDAN RULES).
NASH AND STOCKTON WOULD BE A THE CLOSEST MATCH UP BUT I KINDA GIVE THE EDGE TO STOCKTON(ALL TIME STEALS).
IVERSON WOULD CAUSE MAJOR MATCH UP PROBLEMS ON THE OFFENSIVE END AND I THINK HE CAN HANDLE GUARDING STOCKTON. STOCKTON CANNOT GUARD IVERSON NO MATTER WHAT THOUGH.
THE RAY ALLEN BARKLEY WOULD BE KINDA SCARY I THINK BARKLEY WILL EAT HIM UP IN THE POST AND CAN GUARD HIM DEFENSIVELY. I WOULD HAVE GONE WITH ANTOINE WALKER AND BRING RAY ALLEN OFF THE BENCH.
WALKER WAS A 6″10 DO IT ALL AND WOULD STRETCH THE D IF NOT WALKER I KNOW SHAREEF CAN HANDLE IT.
I HAVE IVERSON GOING OFF IN THE MISMATCH AND GETTING INTO THE PAINT CAUSING HAVOC AND GETTING HIS TEAM MATES INVOLVED.
WINNER CLASS OF 96′ MVP= ALLEN IVERSON
GXO_11 Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:14 am
I’m a big fan of ‘96. Kobe, Ray Allen, & Iverson provide a lot of perimeter scoring along with Steve Nash. Jermaine O’neal and Shareef can hold their own down low. The problem with going against the ‘84 team is checking the Dream.
Erik Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:21 am
The 03′ class is by far the best when it will all be said any done. LBJ will be known as the best or tied with Jordan, Wade is better than anyone else in the 84 class besides Jordan….03 will be a combo of 96 (bunch of talent) and 84 (best of all time)
Fred Towes Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:34 am
Earl, how old are you? Seriously . . .
Mike Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:48 am
Yeah, Wade is better than the Dream.. How old are you??
Phillyguy Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:15 am
Going over the ‘03′draft,I did’nt realize how many quality starters were drafted in ‘03′.
sam Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:32 am
jordans got too much class for lebron to ever be known as the best, theres just nothing he can do bar averaging a 40 point season, which aint guna happen. 84 class all the way, however the depth of this years draft…. lol
Fred Towes Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:42 am
The greatest of his generation, Kobe Bean, Jesus Shuttlesworth & Jermaine O’Neal, my man Allen Iverson, Camby, Marbury, Antoine Walker & Shareef would have gotten whipped like some runaway Mississippi slaves by Tiny, Pistol, Cal Murphy, Lanier, Issel, Rudy, Jim McMillan & Cowens. Brutal & bloody beating.
rick Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 11:05 am
yeah i’d be laughing too if i was anthony. i had two good years out of
five and i’m being considered with the best. the 1970 team could drop 125 pts without breaking a sweat
Antony Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 12:04 pm
Lance, i dont think so buddy.
When you have Olajuwon AND Michael Jordan, two of the most unguardable players EVER in their respective positions. Im sorry mate but there is no way any of those classes would beat ‘84.
Jordan was the smartest basketball player ever. He was a genius.
And Olajuwon would eat up anyone in the post.
Just them two players alone would cause massive match up problems.
And dont forget that not only was MJ and the Dream MVP’s. They were both finals MVP’s AND both Defensive Player of the Year, something that Iverson, Bosh, Lebron, Kobe, Anthony, Ray Ray, Nash nor D-Wade have done.
Class of ‘84 wins everytime.
Craig Bailey Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
This is a fun argument but I personally think its too early to put the 03 class in this discussion. I mean 5 years from now we don’t know who’s gonna fall off, how many titles that group will have or any injuries. Jus hold off on that. But I think the 84 class would emerge over the 96 class (even tho Kobe is my fav player ever) Hakeem would be too much for J’Oneal. But Kobe now vs. Jordan in his prime would a dream matchup.
Mirak Kazanjian Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 1:01 pm
I think what this showed is how the class of 2003 has potential. The NBA isn’t necessarily losing talent, nor are drafts getting weaker. The comparisons that were present here were really interesting and stimulating.
What this does show, is the decline of class in the NBA. To compare players like Jordan/Stockton to players like Iverson/Kobe. For obvious reasons, classiness shouldn’t be considered in the argument for better draft class, but by far what puts ‘84 above ‘96 or any of the other classes is the class. Those 5 players had true passion and enjoyment in the game. They loved the sport and they left their marks while having fun. Today, competition has gotten the best of the sport.
good article though, and good choices as far as the match-up winners.
Aaron miles Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
i think it would be a match up would be 1996 vs. 1984 teams both drafts were deep and will include hall of famers. even tho steve nash is my favorite player and kobe is one of the best in the game rite now. he is not and will nver be jordan. if the 1984 class had our hand check pussy rules all of them would get more than 30 points a game and jordan would get 50. these guys are proven. even tho 2003 class is load with talent too. they should have lost in the first round. cuase like i aisd there unproven and those hall of famer old guys would kick there ass!!!
kipp Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
How is Kobe now vs Mike in his prime a dream match? Its not even close. Put the kool-aid down and step away from the table.
Mike at his best was unbeatable…Kobe, on the other hand is known for either melting down in the biggest moments on biggest stages or be successful (and, unsuccessful) while being teamed up with the best big man in the league (i.e. Shaq or Gasol)
Zonominal Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 2:56 pm
Antony is right on it!!! Can’t no body in history match up with MJ and The Dream, and you would be crazy to leave Stockton open. The Dream would be able to defend the paint, because he knew how to block shots and play D without picking up stupid fouls. He was smart enough to block shots and still allow his team the chance of getting the rebound instead of knocking it out of bounds. If you have a big that can effectively clog up the paint while knowing how to avoid foul trouble, that is a game changer. It’s just sad that the didn’t meet in the finals do to Jordan taking a break, and Stockton killing the Rockets dreams with those 3 pointers.
Boi Boi Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
1984
1996′
2003
NUFF SAID!
Jamie Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:16 pm
Lance said :”I HAVE IVERSON GOING OFF IN THE MISMATCH AND GETTING INTO THE PAINT CAUSING HAVOC AND GETTING HIS TEAM MATES INVOLVED. ”
When has Iverson ever got his teammates involved??
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:24 pm
Kobe likes to think he IS Jordan, as he has copied all (well most) of Jordan’s moves and even has finally cropped his hair almost bald, began wearing the wristband on the forearm, and changed his number from 8 to 24 (1 number higher, or in Kobe’s mind “better” than Jordan’s 23). Kobe has natural ability, but nor originality he is a thin flimsy carbon copy of Jordan’s blueprint of a hardwood assasin. If they went head to head in their pimes, Jordan would win for 2 reasons:
1. He has more bloodthirsty drive/passion/never say die attitude (remember him chasing down Xavier McDaniel and swatting his layup at the last second after the X-man embarrased him by stealing the ball - Jordan simply wouldn’t allow himself to be beaten.
2. Eventually Mike would use a move that he hadn’t shown anyone yet - therefore Kobe wouldn’t have had time to rip it off yet and couldn’t counter.
Plus the Chuckster was pretty fly back in the early 1990s - don’t sleep on him!
Jax Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
Jordan all the way. The problem with this kind of discussions is that the new generation gets to see only these new players, LBJ, Kobe and the rest of the new kids on the block. If you guys had the chance to see Jordan and Olajuwon, Barkley and the rest of those early 80’s players and the game then. You might wonder whether Lebron, Wade, Melo nor even Kobe could do what they are doing right now. No open lane drives for MJ then, no easy shots, they took him to the floor every time he drives to the basket. Well, yeah maybe Lebron could handle it because of his built, but I doubt the others could. Players these days are spoon-fed and are soft. The only way to know if they could handle a Man’s game is get back to the old rules, which is impossible and which makes me realize how stupid an argument I’m making knowing that it is practically impossible to return to old rules. But i guess you guys get my point, Jordan - the smartest, greatest player and competitor the game has ever seen - so far. I’m not counting out the other prospects for such a title.
Harry Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:37 pm
The problem with this kind of list is that draft classes and rookie classes are two completely different animals. For example, Bird and Johnson were drafted in different years, but were part of the same rookie class of ‘79, along with Sidney Moncrief, Vinne Johnson, Jim Paxson, Bill Laimbeer and Bill Cartwright. Now I’d take ‘79 against any team BUT ‘84 personally.
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:41 pm
One other thing - Hakeem schooled A young buff Shaq and a wiley Ewing in the 2 finals that Jordan was playing for the Birmingham Barons, so I think he could EASILY handle Jermaine O’neal (fizzled out) , Shareef Abdur-Rahim (no defense), Or Camby (no offense). ‘Toine had too many cookies to run with Barkley. Charles may have been the round-mound-of-rebound, but he could also run like a deer. And I would have started Thorpe too. Willis had arms like a T-Rex and Thorpe had 2 titles as The Dream’s wingman. Or if not Thorpe, how about starting Optimus Prime at the PF- he was another “class of 1984″!!
Jax Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
reading back at some of the posts, something came to mind. yeah, what if… what if we get back to our old rules and change this league “pussy” rules as one puts it. would Lebron, Melo and Wade be still as dominant as they are? would Kobe have a long career - not get injured by the banging and slamming those “old-timers” took?!?
we can argue day and night and never find answer, we can argue that they played on different eras, but with rational thinking and logical reasoning when put together and used, assuming all these guys played on the era where basketball is really played like BASKETBALL… when it was played like how it is supposed to be played and not used as a tool for entertainment. these new guys, these kids who come into the league at a young age, won’t last. We don’t have Rodman’s these days, no “Bad-boys” of Detroit, Wallace’s Pistons were not even close. Basketball is supposed to be a physical game, nowadays, even hand check is not allowed? Come on! Go home and play chess…
just honest thats all Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
I love MJ too, but let be for real there is waaayyyyyy too much speed not to mention skill in the 1996 class. As a team, we are talking teams right? As a team, 1996 wins….by 10! thats right I said it.
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 4:05 pm
It’s true - all this ticky-tack stuff that gets called as fouls now - sheesh!! In the late 80’s players would get mugged before there was a whistle. In the modern game David Stern is so desperate to CREATE stars that he has made the rules more condusive to flashier scoring and dunks without much defense. It’s sick - it’s like how the NFL has gone almost completely astro-turf instead of grass. Iverson is the only modern day player who came close to taking the beating that the older generation routinely took. You look back at photos of Bird, Laimbeer, Dr. J, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Barkley, Mahorn, etc. you will see nose bleeds, black eyes, fat lips. Today’s players are princesses - right down to the new (barf) satin shimmering look of the uniforms. I hate it - they look like they’re out there in silk lingerie instead of scratchy, polyester MAN jerseys.
perez Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
yeah, players in the 80’s were more physical. But they also were’nt nearly as athletic overall, so defenses now are tougher. Sure, Jordan got hit going to the rim. But at least he was going by guys like Ehlo and finishing over guys like Koncak. Scoring was easier in the 80’s then it is today. Belivei it or not, the game does evolve.
Bobbie Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
LOL, silk lingerie uniforms! It’s sooo true!
guitaro Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 5:39 pm
I also strongly dislike how easy bball has become. Just the defensive 3-second rule and zone defense alone has changed the game dramatically. Now teams who are slow and/or old can still keep up with the young and/or fast teams.
About the only players in today’s game that could handle the old game are LBJ, Wade, Kobe, Deron, RayRay, Garnett, Millsap, Pierce, and Shaq could still play. I could still see that Pistons team that won it a few years ago, they could take it. There are various role players around the league as well. Guys who have a mental toughness that seems to quite rare currently.
However, I just don’t see that league-wide toughness that used to exist before Jordan retired the 2nd time. Of course, by then it had already gotten considerably softer. The 70’s and 80’s were just nasty! I think when the ABA and NBA combined there was a combination of animosity between the two leagues and plus competition between players that just doesn’t exist anymore. Maybe kids who grew up in the prosperous 80’s and early 90’s don’t have that toughness from suffering a little bit. Maybe kids who are growing up now with this current fiscal crisis will be more appreciative of their talents and learn to maximize them with good fundamentals? We’ll see…
George J Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
How could anyone even compare The Dream to J.O.? When he was at his best The Dream embarassed the league MVP i.e. the Admiral and the Admiral was a couple of classes above J.O.
This must be some kind of a joke. David West and Chris Bosh in the discussion for all time best drafts?
Are you serious? Sir Charles would have a field day against that front line. A 40-25-5 line at the end of the game, every game. The 1984 don’t even need Willis, they just need a puppy to prance around to get the req. five. And the game against the 1996 draft would look something like that: (news) “After one quarter 1984 leads 45-12 and the 1996 just refuses to take the floor at the start of the second”. Hakeem has 8 blocked shots to go with 10 boards, 12 points and 4 steals, Barkley has 10-10-3, Stockton has 12 assists and a couple of steals to go with 6 points (couple of treys), and MJ throws in 15-5-5 with a couple of blocks and five steals. The puppy also gets a basket when he jumps up and stuffs the ball off of an MJ penetration and lobe pass.
Selomon Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
The 1996 class is very deep and talented and so is the 2003 class but 1984 has The greatest player ever teamed up with one of the top 5 centers ever in The Dream and the second greatest point guard ever in Stockton (Magic).. Lets not forget Charles Barkley was a beast on the boards at 6″5. The 03′ class has the best chance at beating the 84 class but thats a huge longshot…
Craig Bailey Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
Brad u sound like someone who thinks they’re a psychologist or someone who knows these players peronally. Kobe thinks he’s Jordan??? Really… lol. That whole argument was stupid from the beginning jus by the simple fact that Kobe nor Jordan created those comparisons, the fans and the media have done that. Kobe is compared to Jordan b cuz he’s the most complete player since Jordan. U talk about Jordan’s competitiveness, well Kobe is nearly if not jus as competitive as MJ. But I do agree that the 84 class was better b cuz Hakeem was simply unguardable and he would be the big difference. Even J’oneal was @ his best he couldn’t fuck wit Hakeem. And the 96 class only has 5 championships (4 from Kobe, 1 from Ray Allen) Those 4 rings should say sumthin to u haterz. Maybe jus maybe Kobe is in the conversion of the best ever. Calm down its ok, its not the end of the world, Jordan isn’t God. Lol
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 7:19 pm
Craig Bailey either you’re from LA or you are under the age of 23-25. Kobe didn’t win anything without Shaq until this year and even then he was playing an Orlando team that even Jay Mariotti could see “didn’t belong there”. If the lakers had played Cleveland, they would have lost in 6. Of COURSE Kobe wishes he was Jordan - ask any intelligent student of the game and they’ll tell you that it is OBVIOUS - LeBron, Wade, A.I. all do there own things - they don’t BITE someone elses style!! When he won the All Star game MVP a few years ago in Philly - his “hometown”. He …got…”BOOED”. Jordan wouldn’t get booed in Brooklyn!! Jordan wouldn’t have collapsed against the Celtics in the 2008 finals, Jordan wouldn’t have refused to shoot the year before that against Phoenix when the lakers were getting rocked because he was pouting and wanted to insinuate that his teamates (who the media were saying he didn’t pass t enough at the time) were garbage and the ones at fault. How about when he pushed out Shaq and Phillip and then Shaq won one with Wade. He still needed, Gasol, Odom, & Bynum to do it this time. Kobe’s got no class. He’s a spoiled selfish showboat. I don’t need a PHD to be able to see someone’s motives or how they carry themselves or what they really are. Why don’t you go to the NBA Store online and order a custom lakers jersey with RAPIST 24 on the back, and then walk around downtown Denver sporting it, and tell everyone there how he’s your boy!! The 1984 class had toughness and athletic ability. Plus 1996 had no dominant BIGS.
Stephen Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
Any class with Michael Jordan and Hakeem Olajuwon wins. You can combine 96 and 03, and they still won’t touch the 84 class. REspect. Kobe is a rapist!
Henry Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
How about the worst draft ever?
Fred Towes Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 8:06 pm
Boi Boi,
1984 (no question & no doubt)
1970 (short memories & black-&-white babble box screens diminish appreciation of this tremendous pre-ESPN group - see above)
1987 (the author forgets this Class - & so do this thread’s participants: David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, Reggie Miller, Mark “Action” Jackson, Kenny
The Second Jet/after Chet” Smith, Horace Grant, Rik Smits, Kevin Johnson, & Reggie Lewis - may he rest - what a loss. Forget Halls of Fame & Nike/Addidas/Reebok hype. If you want to talk ball, dig in the crates on the Class of ‘87, then holler at me . . .
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 9:58 pm
I agree Fred, 1987 is the forgotten middle-child. Scottie Pippen is my ALL-TIME FAVORITE PLAYER. Also, David Robinson was drafted in 1987, but not sure if he actually suited-up for San-Antonio in 87-88 or waited a year because of his NAVY obligations. Olden Polynice was a serviceable big man as a reserve for many years as well.
C- Mr. RobInSoN’s NeiGhbOrHoOd
PF - Ho-Grant (Not to be confused with his twin brother Harvey)
SF - Pip
SG- Miller Time (Spike Lee’s Nemesis)
PG - The Jet
Bench:
PG Mark Jackson
PG/SG KJ
C Smits
SF Reggie Lewis (I always think of Len Bias & Hank Gathers too when I remember Reggie Lewis)
PF Ed Pinckney - why not…
Julian Suero Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:18 pm
This year Draft will be the worst of all time…
Julian Suero Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:20 pm
Brad, how can i put Smith up Mark Jackson…
Craig Bailey Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 10:26 pm
Wow Brad u are definately a Kobe Hater, yea none of us need a PHD to label someone but that doesn’t make it true. U want to interpret things that Kobe does as the worst thing ever b cuz u simply don’t like Kobe. Ur bias is so obvious, ur telling me that Kobe a (grown man w/ an ego) pushed Shaq & Phil (both grown men wit egos out of L.A. smh. U gotta be kidding me, Shaq wanted out and Phil said Kobe or me and they chose a 26 yr old Kobe. You need to learn how to think logically and not be receptive to watever the media is feeding the public b cuz point blank they will feed us anything that sales and they continue to do it b cuz ppl like u take it in & believe it. And get off that nonsense, the Lakers lost to Boston b cuz Boston was the better, hungrier & better team. Not b cuz Kobe didn’t show up. They jus got their asses whooped. I can go back to when MJ got his ass whooped by Detroit, or the other 6 yrs before he won a ring but that would be stupid and very “medialike” of me. U need to understand nobody wins a championship alone. NOBODY!!! Kobe had Shaw and Shaq had Kobe, along wit the best coach ever and great role players. All championship teams have balance. Again the media has brainwashed everyone, creating this larger than life superstars that “carry” their teams to a championship. And once again u fall for that one also (hence ur blaming Kobe for the Lakers losing. If u kno basketball…. not perception but basketball or any other TEAM sport u wouldn’t make sum of the statements u make.
Point blank Kobe is the best in the game today, nobody’s close, give the man his due, he has 4 rings and counting, stop hating on success. U can’t put an asterik by anybody’s championships b cuz they had a dominant big man. Kobe has 4 rings doesn’t matter who it was wit. And finally u must watch a lot of Kobe to claim he copies his game from MJ. Who better to pattened ur game after, even tho Kobe does things differently than Jordan, u see great footwork and deadly mid range jumper u think MJ. MJ isn’t the owner of basketball. Come on dude, he’s no God, he’s a human like the rest of us. Don’t put him on a pedestal and knock the next guy down for being successful
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 11:33 pm
Craig, Craig, Craig… tsk, tsk, tsk… You said it yourself… Phil said me or Kobe. Why would he say that unless he had a problem with Kobe??????????? Did he ever say me or Shaq? Me or Jordan? Me or Pippen???? Did he???? Shaq doesn’t even like Kobe to this DAY! Plus Phil even chronicled in his book what a punk kobe was.
2nd, Don’t sit there and attempt to school me on basketball. I’ve been a student of this game since 1987 son! And if you say you’ve been watching longer than that your probably lying. Your arguments suggest that your a young pup and it is ye who are blinded by the media’s & David Stern’s creation of Kobe the great. To insinuate that I am one of the lemmings who follow David Sterns trail of fairy dust is ludacris!!!! I know the score! I just don’t have a hard-on for kobe is all.
3rd, I’m not a Jordan homer - he’s not even my favorite player on those championship teams - Pippen is.
4th, LeBron is the most complete player of today’s crop. Kobe can’t pass like him. He can’t jump as high, he isn’t as strong, he doesn’t inspire teamates. He’d sooner catch a cold than a rebound. The only area I’d give the edge to Kobe over LeBron is jumpshooting - for now… give LeBron another 5 years to hone his shot and that’d be it.
5th, Kobe is dirty. Are you old enough to remember when he elbowed Mike Bibby in the mouth and the refs didn’t call it… that non-call changed the whole course of that series. Sacramento should’ve had the title that year. How about this year in the Houston series where he was sliding in cheap shots on Artest and relying on Artest’s bad reputation with the refs to get away with that type of play. Kobe should’ve been suspended for one Houston game.
6th, yeah - I am a Kobe “hater”, I am biased, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m right. Back in the day you had some Dominique and Clyde Drexler supporters… but everyone knew MJ was lapping even them in the race for supremecy. Wheras kobe can’t even win the argument definitevley of his own generation, much less better than MJ all-time. When he was young, there was debate over him vs. Penny, then Vince, then T-Mac, & AI. Now that he’s aging & there’s STILL debate over him vs. LeBron, him vs. D-Wade, and soon Kevin Durant will enter the talks. He’s NEVER been the CLEAR-CUT dominant baller.
7th, Let’s just agree to disagree. You take your kob and I’ll take my Jordan and when the other bloggers wake up tomorrow and catch up to/join in the discussion thread, we’ll see who they agree with and who they think is full of hot air.
There’s an old saying that goes something like “I’d rather push a Chevy than drive a Ford.” Well I’d rather lose with Jordan, Barkley, and the 84 squad than win with kobe, princess allen and the 96 “team” (I quote the word team, because even Ray Allen, the most easy-going of stars has said he doesn’t like kobe either).
Craig Bailey Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 11:44 pm
Well brad u jus made my point. U named all these players that have been compared to Kobe and yet who has came out on top?? Kobe!!! And quit bring stuff that happened 4+ yrs ago. Wat happened this past season? All the bad Kobe supposidely is but yet he has 4 rings. Lebron is better team player but he couldn’t motivate his team past an Orlando team that u said didn’t belong in the Finals. And Lebron be stronger than Kobe, he outweighs him 50+ pounds. And the NBA is pushing Lebron more than anyone else. Why is he in conversions wit Jordan and he ain’t won shit yet. Let him actually accomplish sumthin more than individual goals. He’s a sore loser, overhyped freak of nature. He jumps higher cuz he’s younger, Kobe is almost 31 and still Lebron can’t fuck wit him. And yes I’m old enough to remember that game six against the Kings, I’m not a teen. I seen it. But jus by u admitting ur a Kobe hater makes all ur arguments B.S. its simple nit picking. Nuthin u say can deny 4 Championships. U need to put down the Haterade.
Brad Said,
June 22, 2009 @ 11:52 pm
I almost forgot… when you mention TEAM sports, I had to laugh- when Bynum went down with the injury who helped him to the bench? It was odom and gasol I beleive. I know for damn sure it WASN’T kobe. Because I distinctly remember him just looking put-out at the instant dent in his chances for a ring rather than concerned for a TEAM MATE’S pain from injury. I’d have to look at the tape again to be sure, but if anything, kobe may have indirectly caused Bynum’s fall and subsequent injury himself anyway! Then he just looked pissed at Bynum for getting hurt. WHAT-A-GREAT-GUY!!!!
Oh, and lastly - judging by your last post’s terminology i.e. “brainwashing”, “ego”, “judgement” & “perception” and so-on and so-on and SO-ON… NOW who thinks they’re a psychologist????
There’s one in every thread…
Brad Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 12:13 am
If someone slapped your mom across the face 4 years ago would you just forget it the next time you saw them???? TIME ELAPSED DOES NOT ERASE MISDEEDS!!!! I am not alone here. There is a nation of sports fans who hold injustice grudges against players and teams for years. It does not mean we are ‘hatin’ on success’. I can tip my hat to an opponent that I don’t like IF i feel that they deserve their success because they won it fair and earned it.
If you put vince or t-mac or even AI on LA in the early 2000’s and but kob on toronto, orlando, or philly by esentially HIMSELF how many titles do you think he’d have??? ZILCH. and Shaq and Phil and __________________ would still have 3.
I think bronbron is a tad overhyped too. he’s like the tony romo of the nba, except he’s actually achieved some individual accomplishments. I didn’t think his Zeke impression against Orlando was well-played at all.
Some more food-for-thought: Kobe got 81 against the toronto-freakin-raptors at the Staples center in a meaningless regular season game. Jordan got 63 at the GAden against Bird’s vaunted Celtics in a PLAYOFF game.
Bottom line is you’re never gonna convince me that kobe is not a Jordan wanabee. (I don’t hink that MJ is God - Larry Bird said that, not me). And apparently, I’m never gonna open your eyes to what kob really is. So be it.
allan monterona Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 12:14 am
nba teams almost always need batman and robin to win a championship. just when did mj won a championship without pippen? olajuwon without drexler? stockton is no 1 in assist but the recipient is always malone.kobe won 3 rings with shaq and lately with gasol. today i would go for 96 but barring injuries 03 would be the best. todays rules are just alright, before no harm no foul applies only in favor of some teams e.g. bulls. just remember how jordan pushed byron russel to take the winning shot it should have been off. foul but the nba wants mj and the bulls to win for the record. go 96…. tommorow 03 .
eighty four Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 1:34 am
I think the class 84 can beat this team: Magic, Wilt, Kobe, Tim, Lebron.
travis Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 2:17 am
So many of you guys posting on here are so biased and lacking knowledge.
Jordan DID NOT get knocked down everytime he went into the lane. believe it or not he only scored 8 of his 32 points from the free throw line every game so where do all the other points come from?
he took it to the basket and finished.
basketball today is great, its not always tough but its tough enough. for the defense to improve the players actually need to improve their defense. look at the spurs that won 4 championships or the pistons in 03 or the celtics of 08. all were terrific defensive teams and were tough as nails.
Kobe is not Jordan but he is my favourite player and im able to say that. it would be like a matchup between d wade and kobe. we all know kobe is much better overall but wade could win some of these matchups and it would be the same with kobe going against jordan. jordan would win most of the time but kobe would be terrific too and would win his fair share.
Just love the game of basketball and stop being a detriment to it by bagging players
Ron Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 2:22 am
Brad Brad Brad where do I start. First. When have T-Mac or Vince won anything or came up really big when it mattered most. You act is if Kobe has never done anything and he is some sort of scrub. The Logo himself said Kobe was the best player in the league for the last 7 or 8 years. Until this year where the Logo said labron had past him. pretty high praise don’t you think?
Dr Jerry Buss go rid of Shaq. First shaq was not always being in Shape. After The Lakers won the second of there 3 titles in a row. Shaq was playing on a bad foot. Instead of getting surgery right after the season and heal up. He decided to do it right before camp started and 6 weeks of the season. To prove the Lakers could not win without him. Why does he get a free pass on being selfish.
Then at the start of 2003-04 season Shaq wanted an contract extension in a preseason game game dunk the ball looked up at the owners box and ask wheres is my f’in money. fast forward to a sunday night game January of 2005 vs the suns. Jim Gray was interveiwing Dr.Buss, He ask Dr.Buss what was his priority at season ends. He siad to make Kobe a Laker for life. Jim follow up question what about Shaq and Phil. Dr,Buss said again my first job is to make Kobe a Laker for life. Was not sure what to he was going to do with Shaq and Phil. Shaq was 7 years older and would cost way more money. Remember Shaq took a pay cut in miami one he was unwilling to due in L.A. he went from 32mil to 20mil to make cap room. Also look at the Lakers 2002 to 2004 thet were getting old and non athletic. So the had to make a choice between Shaq and Kobe. was not a hard choice. And Look at their play off series with Portland, Sac and the Spurs if Kobe was not a Laker the would not have won those series. How many great players have one alone none. Shaq has never won with out great guard help Penny,Kobe and D-Wade. MJ had Pippen, a top 3 power forward in Ho Grant and a dead I shooter in Paxon and second go round Pip again. ,Rodman,Tony K,Ron Harper and player who understood their roles. So get a clue about the game
P.S Derek Fisher said this was the most fun he has ever had with a team they where like brothers. omg a team with Kobe can’t be. And D-wade just came out and said Kobe is still the best in the game. No coincidence that Labron, D-Wade and Carmelo Anthony leard to put more effort on the defensive end and pay attention to detail in their games. Had career years after being with Kobe on the olympic team
JOE_SIXPACK Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 3:02 am
@ Craig Bailey: Your right about about lebron, people are putting him in conversations with micheal Jordan and even making comparisons between the two and Lebron hasn’t even won anything yet, and i hate it when people say that Lebron is better than Kobe, he doesn’t even have half the accomplishments that kobe has and Like you said craig Kobe is will be 31 soon and he still can’t mess with him. The reason why lebron is so popular right despite the fact that he hasn’t done much yet is because stern is pushing him to be the face of the league and Brad shut your mouth your biased get off this thread peace out.
JOE_SIXPACK Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 3:07 am
One more thing brad, you’re making it sound like kobe’s 81 was insignificant kobe dropped 81 points against double teams and triple teams did you even see the game? can you even drop 3o in a regular pick up game? I don’t think so give the man his respect
Ron Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 3:49 am
One last note on the M.J and Kobe comparison. M.J played on the weakside of the Triangle mainly cause others handled the ball to start the offense(really the small forward position) Kobe plays the front or strongside of the offense cause he handles the ball more like a point guard also easier to double or trap the ball. M J was stronger with huge hands and could finish at the rim better not that Kobe can’t go to the rim. Kobe better mid range game not that MJ did not have one. For MJ career 1,264 games which included reg season, playoffs and all star games he took 29,267 shots 23.15 per game. For every 4 shots he averaged 1 assist. Kobe to this point in his career for reg season, playoff and all star games has took 21,838 shots 19.25 per average 1 assist every 4 shots.Both worked hard to get better and hated to lose.MJ 6 rings Kobe 4 Both will go down as one of the best to ever play. Kobe rising does not lesson the greatness of MJ. It’s okay to give him credit for being good even if you don’t like him.
Fred Towes Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 9:15 am
Brad,
I thought of mentioning Olden Polynice from ‘87, but I refrained, as I figured my appreciation for the big fella was colored due to my Big East/ACC/East Coast bias . . .
I like your lineup . . . you’re right, the Admiral didn’t suit up until ‘89-’90 due to naval service (on a tremendous ‘89 Spurs club by then: Robinson, the Chi-town ballers Mo Cheeks & Terry Cummings, Rocket Rod Strickland, Willie Anderson, Sean Elliott, Vernon Maxwell & the ‘87 Hoyas Wingate & Williams, coached by LB-for-LB. Strick threw it behind his back to no one to finish of SA in Game 7 vs. Drex’s Blazers in the Western Conference Playoffs. The NBA was fan-tastic). But that was some kind of mighty, forgotten draft class in ‘87.
Check out http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/news/story?id=4278018 for Mickey Mouse Inc.’s take on the best classes of the last twenty years . . .
Peace.
Greg Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 9:56 am
1984… Alvin Robertson should have been listed before Willis… Robertson was a 4 time All-Star and defensive player of the year in 85-86.
Fred Towes Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 10:56 am
Henry,
From a talent perspective, 2000 was the worst draft of my near-30 years watching the NBA — & it’s really not that close. ‘89 at least featured Kemp (the uber athletic big who redefined the 4-slot for the likes of Amare) & Glen Rice (the purest & most rhythmic shooting-big wing I have ever seen). Now 1986 was replete with tragedy (Bias/Washburn/Bedford) & unfortunate circumstance (Daughtery/Harper), but the ferocious talent of that draft was the very trait that informed the group heartbreak.
Not 2000. Had Blake Griffin returned to Oklahoma for 2009-10, then this 2009 contingent could give the NBA Class of Y2k a run for its apocalyptic money. Otherwise . . .
Peace.
Brad Said,
June 23, 2009 @ 12:40 pm
Ahhhhh. Shawn Kemp throwing down was a thing to behold! SUCH an under-remembered player. It’s too bad! He did make the 4 spot more amazingly athletic the way Pippen made the 3 spot the “point-foward spot”. I always thought that the best “LATE-90s” squad would have been those 2 at the foward spots, D-Rob at Center and MJ and GP at guards. That would have been an electric mix of steals, blocks, lobs, dunks, speed, and defense.
And to all you Laker lovers:
1. The Logo was a Laker, so …. uhhh…. no bias there with him naming kobe the best.
2. Character counts. I don’t forget, nor do I imagine a lot of female fans nor a lot of Denver citizens have. Maybe you all don’t care about that. Maybe you think kobe should be able to rape your mothers and sisters and then get him to autograph your 6 foot door poster of him???
3. I’ve hated Shaq too. He had NO talent. He just bulldozed the likes of Dale Davis and Brian Grant and he got DEFENSE CALLS AGAINST THEM. DE-FEN-SIVE CALLS. If you’re a ref, how do you watch a 303 pound force smash a 260 pound man to the ground when the 260 pound defender was just standing there feet planted with his hands up in the air —-and then call the defender for blocking??????? Once shaq lost most of his strength, he couldn’t score as easily. I’ve seen him miss UNCONTESTED lay-ups. He’s got no SKILL. He was only brute. He should have been an NFL defensive end or a professional wrestler instead.
4. The Lakers are the Yankees of basketball. Wilt Chamberlain, “let’s take him from Philly”. Lew Alcindor “Let’s take him from Milwaukee”. Shaquille O’Neal “lets take him from Orlando”. Mikan and Bynum are there only home-grown bigs - and Mikan was when they were in Minnesota. Every other great big has been pilleged from other teams. Grow your own talent LA!
5. My point was T-Mac (who has shut kobe down in All-Star games) or Vince were both very athletic, young, quick, wings who could score at ease and were in that 6-6 to 6-8 range and could have been EASILY interchanged for kobe and LA still would have had those three titles. If kobe was the driving force (and not shaq) why did he never get finals MVP any of those three years???? Hmmm??? Why??? Hmm????
6. You all are the ones who need to “get a clue about the game”. I know my NBA history. I also know Jordan had very talented help that never gets enough credit! People always mention shaqandkobe in the same breath, but they leave out Pippen from Jordan like 90% of the time - which ISN’T RIGHT! Bird also had McHale and The Chief. And Magic had Kareem and Worthy.
7. At least I admit that I hate a team or a player. You Laker homers say “get that biased junk outta here” - but you all are the most biased herbs of the bunch!! You front like you’re all about peace and ALLOWING for opposing views, but if someone doesn’t ADORE kobe, you say “you’re a hater” (BTW the term ‘hater’ and ‘haterade’ and ‘throw him under the bus’ are so used up - get some new terms!!) Oh that’s right you like recycled stuff- like kobe. You all probably would prefer Christian Slater go to the laker games instead of Jack Nicholson because he is a younger imitation of Jack). Don’t even try to act like there isn’t a player or a team that you don’t hate too. Knicks fans hated Reggie Miller. Yankees fans hated Pedro Martinez. It’s a part of sports - deal with it. If you don’t feel passionate about your team or players then you are not a fan. After all the term fan is derived from fanatic. Your just generation K. That’s why you hate LeBron so much too, because he is a VALID threat to your kobe argument. You young Kobe pups either didn’t see enough of the 80s/90s game to appreciate it or you’re just ignorant and you want tto say your guy is the best and us older fools over-rate Jordan and Hakeem and Barkley, et all. Well, guess what - someday you’ll be older too and some young little snot-nose kid is gonna tell you that player_________________ is better than kobe and you’re an old fart for loving kobe. Maybe it’s already happening with bronbron or maybe it’ll be Rubio or some kid who is only 10 years old now. At least I can recognize and respect players who came before my PERSONAL FAVORITES came on the scene like Oscar, Pistol, Russell, & Gervin.
8. There are people on both sides of the fence to this debate. I know where I stand, and to all of the kobe/shaq/laker lovers who ARE SOOOOO BIASED and living in denial, I think Shawn said it best when he said:
‘He who does not feel me is not real to me, therefore he does not exist. So poof..VAMOOSE son-of-a-bitch!’
Ron Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 12:37 am
MORE BY YANNIS KOUTROUPIS
Spurs Acquire Richard Jefferson: The San Antonio Spurs and Milwaukee Bucks have agreed to a four-player…
——————————————————————————–
——————————————————————————–
Pippen Chimes In
With the Lakers winning the 2009 NBA Championship the Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan debate is back on in full force. Tommy Beer tackled the question for us earlier this week and just recently former teammate of MJ Scottie Pippen spoke on it as well.
“Well I think you’re looking at two great players and it’s hard to really compare them,” started Scottie on KLAC in Los Angeles. “They played in two different eras, they have very similar styles. I don’t know if Kobe has mimicked Michael’s style or if he has his own style. But there are a lot of similarities there - the way they play, the way they approach the game, the ability to close games at the end. It’s never going to be a situation where you can compare who’s better - Kobe or Michael. Kobe is the greatest player in his time and Michael was the greatest player in his time.”
not. I think he’s the best player in the league right now in my eyes still. I know LeBron has shown great signs of being great and he’s definitely a better all around player than Kobe, but I think Kobe is definitely the greatest player in this generation.”
Elvin Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 12:50 am
I think you all forgetting charles here.Barkley would murder any PF in that 96 or 03 team or a center for that matter.Common guys the man bulled through the air if anyone flew he just bulled.
If James can score at will righ now cus I think he is a monster please watch charle’s sixer games.He just did whatever he wanted with the ball.Common and his intensity,Barkley never had anyone to win the championship,I consider him the greatest player in nba history to never win a championship but with hakeem who has the most steals as a center in nba history,and the most blocks dominating on defense and charles on the post with stockton passing? Guy MJ’s 50 points are only gonna make the diference in scoring.I am not even talking about his steals blocks rebounds,I just do not need that.
‘84 thats it guys i am sorry.No way not even close.
And by the way MJ’s all time high score is 69 not 63,just to be clear on that.
I love david robinson but charle’s kicked his 7′1 ass in ‘92-93 year just watch the tapes a 6′4 blocking a dunk by 7′1 robinson.
Wow 1984 again.
Malone was only good because of stockton guys.the man has the most assists in nba history no wonder malone is number 2 in all time points plus he did get to the number two spot in what 18 seasons?when MJ got to 3 in 15 plus in his second or third season in the nba he only player 13 games cus of the injury.
Anyways once again 1984 on top
john marshall Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 1:07 am
Well if we change this conversation to what the comments have become versus in prime then you eliminate the original post winner. The game evolves and changes(not just rules in favor of the younger players old timers). The players now are faster stronger and can jump higher. So if you take players from the 80’s in there prime and throw them in versus the likes of James Wade and crew you might be very suprised at the outcome. As far as class Wade and James have done nothing but help the NBA out since entering this game now Iverson and Kobe both have some red marks but Kobe has recovered nicely. So in summation Wade at the point smokes stockton match James against MJ to big to fast. Melo at the 3 the rest is history. I know all you MJ era folks and older have conflicting opinions but step outside your biased opinion and look at the players. They are literally faster stronger and jump higher check the number comparing 80’s to present. The dream is my favorite player all time but I do not even dream of thinking about him playing todays game against the likes of Dwight Howard. So major props to all player who retired and the accomplishments are still amazing so leave the conversation to that not there skill sets or head to head play. Again incase you dead not actually read this do not care to hear about rule changes.
Jax Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 5:52 am
@Shaq issue
to say that Shaq isn’t fit and is too overweight is plain Stoooopid! the guy’s been in the league for about 15 years already. how could a guy who’s not fit stay in this league for so long and dominate? if he’s overweight - he can’t spin as fast as he does and leave “swifter” and “leaner” centers guarding him. he won’t be able to do SOME fastbreaks. the guy’s a freak of nature… have you seen him dance? he’s an atheletic big guy, at 7-1, with speed, strength and skill. it ain’t easy being a 7 footer doing the things he’s done. to say that Shaq is just brute force, again is - Stooooooooooooooooooooopid!
Fred Towes Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 4:34 pm
I think Brad is speaking to an obvious element of Shaquille O’Neal’s evolution as a basketball player. Because of his brute strength & the manner in which he has been afforded considerable deference by the NBA’s officials (as with any pro superstar: there are Shaq Calls/non-Calls, there are Jordan Calls/non-Calls, there are LeBron Calls/non-Calls, there are Kobe Calls/non-Calls, etc.), Shaq never developed the more nuanced elements of pro pivot play. Or, at least he never mastered nimble footwork along the lines of Hakeem, never wielded Kareem’s hook nor Duncan’s bank, nor did he find the range of Robinson or Ewing ,nor the graceful touch of Wilt. He stood 7′1 & weighed a solid 320-350 lbs., and was gifted by nature withoutrageous athletic ability for someone that size; thus he never had to develop his post game along the lines of the greats. He simply overpowered all comers of his generation.
Along those lines, Shaq never moved his feet nor played the active position game like his contemporary Zo Mourning, nor was he a game-changing/game-saving shot blocker ala Mutombo or, surely, nothing close to Russell. Given Shaq’s aforementioned size & physical presence, he took up space in the lane — & that was his greatest defensive talent.
Some (quite often professional players, & sympathizers of various stripes) use the above to defend Shaq against his detractors; others (self-admitting Laker-haters like our man Brad, intense traditionalists, anti-hip-hopsters, whomever) use the above to slam the legacy of the last dominant back-to-the-basket big man we may ever see. I prefer to say “it is what it is”: like any other observable fact-of-the-matter. Just the true word.
The only issue for which I will call Mr. O’Neal into real question is that — the above comparisons aside — the “original Superman” never learned to work in the paint, in the game, nor off the court, like Moses Malone & the above legends. If he had, there would exist no need whatsoever for further conversation.
Peace.
Drupad Tripathi Said,
June 24, 2009 @ 9:49 pm
1996… trust me. I know basketball.
JT Said,
June 25, 2009 @ 1:51 am
Brad, love the fact that character counts for something… yet your favorite player is scottie pippen, who had plenty of off the court issues himself.. oh ya and pretty sure u never saw kobe refuse to go back into a PLAYOFF game because the final shot wasnt drawn up for him… oh ya and i am LA fan and i do like kobe so yes i am biased in my opinion that he is the best player in the league and has been for the last several years, but just cuz im biased doesnt mean its not true.
The Truth Said,
June 25, 2009 @ 10:08 am
2003 hands down. Too fast and too strong. LBJ D WADE and MELO have that inside outside game. D WADE is just flat out bigger and stronger than MJ. LBJ can take the dream, trust me on this. Melo on barkley, u kidding me? melo is in the elite when he pushes himself. 1984 got nothing on 2003. And by the way LBJ and D WADE have a court vision that is just as good (possibly better) than Jordan. Let the stats and credibility speak now, but when it’s all said and done, 15 years from now, we all know that 2003 was the greatest draft class of all time.
Chucky Said,
June 25, 2009 @ 10:53 am
You guys sweat Jordan too much. He was a great player but was given much help from the league. If he had started in 1979 with Magic and Bird, he would have won 2-3 titles.
Fred Towes Said,
June 25, 2009 @ 12:08 pm
John Marshall, Drupad Tripathi & “The Truth”,
Are you assessing baskeball players or are you assessing athletes? Further, are you appreciating the game & the subtleties of its play or are you appreciating the aesthetic & the cosmetic?
Jackie Moon Said,
June 25, 2009 @ 12:26 pm
this was very very good! nice depth. but i still love ‘84 and ‘96 drafts the best! but ‘84 is totally superior! i wonder what we will say about this years draft 5 years from now? the talent might not be great but for the first time in a long time, the 1st and 2nd round seems practically equal! if you doubt me , check this:
http://smokingpistons.com/
What's the Best Draft Class Ever? Said,
June 26, 2009 @ 11:12 am
[...] What’s the Best Draft Class Ever? [quote][What
bwallace4ever Said,
June 26, 2009 @ 12:27 pm
How about 98 draft?
At least you have to mention that in the match ups.
Carter, Pierce, Nowitzki, Stojakovic, Bibby, Ricky Davis, Antawn Jamison
DaleB Said,
June 26, 2009 @ 1:49 pm
John Marshall must be smoking…..
First, Stockton was a great defensive guard and was quick as hell.
Sure, Wade could get his, but not without a lot of work.
Jordan had physical strength to match anyone. LBJ would NOT win that matchup….. at least not at this point. (who knows how good he’ll get)
But you dumbest statement was that Hakeem couldn’t take Howard in “today’s game”….. jeez, howard couldn’t dominate kendrick perkins. He couldn’t score when it matters…if he can’t dunk he is a non-factor on the Offensive game.
I agree with Brad about Shaq (and most everything else), but even Shaq had more touch than howard does now.
I can’t stand you young guys who never really watched till 5 years ago, and only love the current media stars…lame….
And you also assume that all basketball before say, 1995, was played by slow unatheletic brothers and even worse white guys…….geez….
There might be MORE atheletes per team, but the top atheletes haven’t gotten better…..or worse…. with the possible exception of LEbron who’s a once in hundred years freak.
Wade = David Thompson
Amare = Shawn Kemp
Nowitski = McAdoo
Kobe = lesser jordan
Fred Towes Said,
June 26, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
DaleB,
On the player comparisons used to wrap-up your message, I only have this to add:
Period.
Period.
Period.
Period.
& just to make it a roundball five, Dwight Howard = Darryl Dawkins with a chiseled physique (hell, he even plays in Chocolate Thunder’s hometown).
Young gents, go YouTube some Dawkins video, research his career stats, then compare that to how you & all the hype-&-spin maestros perceive of Dwight Howard as a “dominant force” in the contemporary paint.
& that should tell you all that you need to know about the devolution of professional basketball at the playing-level over the last twenty-five years.
Fred Towes Said,
June 26, 2009 @ 5:50 pm
For the record, I’m equating Howard’s offensive game in the pivot to that of Darryl Dawkins as per the previous commentator’s reference to this New Jack “Superman’s” lack of touch as he attempts to execute almost any shot aside a dunk. Quite Thunder-ish.
Peace.
DaleB Said,
June 27, 2009 @ 7:43 am
I agree Fred.
Did you see that ugly, running, left handed hook he kept chucking up?
Shades of Dikembe….
I’m not hating on Dwight, he’s a nice guy, hell of an athelete…but he’s everything that’s wrong with American Bigs (as a stereotype) since the end of the 90’s. Get rid of Ewing as a coach and bring in either McHale or Hakeem….. Dwight with ‘the worm’? Dwight with the “dream shake”
Now then he’d be unstoppable.
BTW, what did you think of that idiot saying Hakeem couldn’t play against Dwight? Hakeem was the most athtletic big guy i’ve ever seen.
Fred Towes Said,
June 27, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
DaleB,
That “comment” re: Hakeem was one of two or three thread statements that deserve no response whatsoever, as they reveal the unfortunate fact that those promoting such notions did not share the benefit of beholding a post craftsman of Hakeem’s caliber in his prime, or that the commentator is too young to have fully appreciated the nuance of Hakeem’s game at its brilliant heights. Or such statements reveal that the commentator is merely in foolish denial.
Put the best of ‘84 on a club together — John Stockton & Alvin Robertson, Mike Jordan, Barkley & Hakeem, with Kevin Willis off the bench, & there is no six from any subsequent class that could match ‘84 in terms of game-skill, decision-making, balanced execution on both ends & creativity . . . & I am not even considering the player’s career accomplishments. Not at all, just their games.
Peace.
DaleB Said,
June 27, 2009 @ 4:32 pm
I didn’t see as much of Alvin Robertson as i wished…..
Still…
G. Stockton
G. Robertson
G. MJ
PF Barkeley
C. Hakeem
6th Willis.
What’s the best 03 can do?
G. Hinrich
G. Wade
F. Lebron
F. Carmelo
C. Bosh?
6th Kaman ? Or would you have to start him to try and slow down Hakeem?
Yeah, Both units can score….but 84 wins every matchup except maybe Robertson vs. Wade. And Stockton DESTROYS Hinrich, but Hakeem literally rapesss any Bosh/Kaman combo. Hell, you could throw in Dwight instead of Kaman (violating the draft team)
and Hakeem would dominate.
BTW, some of those 70’s drafts might be a better match.Your opinion fred?
Fred Towes Said,
June 28, 2009 @ 12:34 pm
Good analysis, Dale. As I mentioned earlier, the Class of 70′ was deeper than every group thus far mentioned aside ‘84. Pistol, Cal Murphy et al. would whup every class post ‘87 — not “whip” either, no, they’d whup (W.ake H.ell UP) on these gym shoe boys with which some of our friends are so enamored. An earlier commentator mentioned the Class of ‘79 . . . very strong & balanced group. The Class of ‘74 is an under-appreciated bunch, partially because of the ABA, partially due to injury: Bill Walton, Marvin Barnes, Jamaal “Silk” Wilkes, Bobby Jones, Scott Wedman, Brian Winters, Maurice Lucas, Campy Russell. Ball-players beset by physical misfortune & bad timing.
As to ‘84, I intend no disrespect to Joe D nor to Dennis Johnson (may he rest), but Alvin Robertson was one of the three best defensive guards I have every seen (along with Sid Moncreif & Gary Payton). Add Dumars & DJ, & these are the best five guards on the defensive end during my years as a fan. So,dependent on the rules in play, Dwyane might have had some serious trouble with Alvin — or any of the rest of those backcourt operators in their primes.
I say that to intone that it may be somewhat unfair to compare any group of NBA players who entered the pro game post-’93 — & surely post-’95 — to the class of players from the 70’s & 80’s. Expansion & rampant rules changes have altered basketball, & the level of competition within it, to such a degree that pro ball is very nearly a different sport entirely than the one to which I was introduced back when Jimmy Carter was president & David Stern was just another suit with an Ivy JD in the Manhattan office.
Peace.
Bizkit Said,
June 28, 2009 @ 1:43 pm
This is how I look at it, the NBA game has shifted greatly. Looking at career stats of players from say the 80’s and early 90’s and comparing them to today’s players one would assume that the rise in the average players PPG and Rebounding numbers suggests that the modern NBA players is better than their golden age peers. But one needs to just look at the the rule changes that David Stern implemented which lead to a more open and offensive minded game that we see today which greatly benefits athletic quick players.
Could Lebron, Wade and Bosh put up impressive numbers against an 84 squad sure, but I would take MJ’s, Barkley’s and Stockton’s chances of stoping those players over Lebron and Wade trying to stop MJ and co.
DaleB Said,
June 29, 2009 @ 3:47 pm
fred….
I wasn’t aware of Robertson’s defensive ability. Since i only really watched pro-ball after 1985, i missed too much….
Gotta say, Dennis Johnson was a better defender than Gary Payton….i did watch his celtics games from the 80’s….and again on ESPN Classic.
He was one of few who could bother Magic…as was Dumars vs. Jordan.
BTW, Dumars defended jordan better than Payton…I’ve never liked GP
ZSMART3 Said,
June 29, 2009 @ 11:35 pm
the best d GP played was with his mouth…Dumars definitely abetter defender….GP who bumped heads with George Karl time and time again probably would go down as a better player than dumars though. I know his fingers are naked (though the lakeshow did a commendable job trying to give him one with malone, kobe, and shaq before they all got neutralized by the pistons in 03) but GP was a top-10 player in the league for several years.
Rubio to the Garden?
http://zsmart.blogspot.com/2009/06/big-sully-talks-bockers.html
Bud M Said,
July 2, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Hey, speaking of anniversaries, anyone care to guess when the longest game in NBA history occurred, and who played it?
This article I read by a sportswriter on electro-mech, a scoreboard maker, says it was in January of 51 — between the Indianapolis Olympians and Rochester Royals. It went into six overtimes and it lasted 78 minutes.
Here’s the link if you want to read more and who won: http://www.electro-mech.com/team-sports/basketball/longest-game-in-nba-history/#more-995
The Dude Said,
July 4, 2009 @ 7:14 pm
@ZSmart3 - GP got his ring with the Heat on D-Wade and Salvatore’s coat-tails.
@DaleB - Ewing had good low-post moves and a mid-range game. He wasn’t as quick as McHale or Olajuwon, but he was fine. Howard’s offensive woes aren’t due to Ewing’s coaching but due to his grammar school — high school coaches, who told him to just stand under the basket and dunk. You don’t see big men with polished offensive skills nowadays unless they are foreign or had a freak growth spurt in college. If I were a tall basketball player in high-school, I’d pretend dunking was illegal as in Lew Alcindor’s days and develop a sky-hook. Kareem himself has said it may not seem cool, but it’s indefensible and you just might become the highest scoring player in the history of the NBA.
@john marshall - The Dream bested Shaq, who at that time was a rich-man’s version of Dwight Howard.
@Fred Towes - Shaq was just as big a defensive force in the playoffs in the early 2000’s as anyone in recent memory. Shaq was a freak of nature to have a body that big yet move that fast. Hakeem and Robinson were faster, but I’d have to say Shaq was quicker … if that makes sense. I also think he was the most dominant player of our time when he was motivated and healthy. It’s too bad he didn’t have MJ and Kobe’s drive unless he got spurned. Maybe, it’s not too late to take up kung-fu and yoga like Kareem and Chief. Some have pointed out that he isn’t a skilled player, but he dominated within the rules of the game! Brad mentioned he bull-dozed over the likes of Grant and Davis, but he was also hacked a lot. Maybe, the NBA (or even better, college and high-school) will adopt a wider lane so that post-players have to develop other skills.
@Finally, to all the MJ and Kobe folks. I remember MJ being almost as hated as Kobe back in the day. Half the people loved him and the other half (Lakers, Knicks, Pistons, etc. fans) complained he hogged the ball, was mean to his teammates, etc. Now, with revisionist history, we attribute all that to his passion and determination to win. I’m sure when Kobe retires, we will all miss him whether we cheered for him or not. I cheered against MJ, but was actually happy when he returned to the NBA.
Anyway, 84 would win because, as Antony already mentioned, Hakeem and Jordan were Defensive Players of the Year, unlike the players in the 96 class. If anyone saw Jordan and Pippen hold a well-oiled Jazz offense, led by two of the greatest point guards and forwards of all time and an amazing shooter in Hornacek, to 54 points, then, you can imagine what Jordan and Hakeem might do.