Russell up there with MJ
As we enter Michael-Fest this weekend at the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, hagiography is blurring history a little.
Michael Jordan is the “The Best Ever.” ESPN The Magazine says so in a special Hall of Fame issue. The Chicago Bulls website says so. (You’d expect someone else?) Many, many followers of the NBA think that is the case as well.
It’s become unfashionable, bad form and even blasphemous these days to suggest otherwise. Not to diminish or devalue what Jordan did; he is, unquestionably, the greatest player of his time. But of all time?
I recently came across this quote from Bulls executive John Paxson, a former teammate of Jordan’s: “I know I’m biased because I played with him, but in my mind, he’s easily the greatest player to ever play. I don’t know how you can match what he did on the floor or his winning.”
It’s the second sentence, not the first, which calls for a response. Specifically, the last three words: “or his winning.”
Michael Jordan won a lot. He won six NBA titles. He won two Olympic Gold medals. He won an NCAA title. You’d want him on your starting five if the fate of western civilization was on the line. But, Mr. Paxson his “winning” doesn’t come close to matching that of one William Felton Russell. No one’s does.
So, if you define greatness as success, or as achieving your goal constantly above all else and all others, there is no one in the history of American team sports, not just the NBA, who won more than Bill Russell.
This isn’t a case of a Boston bias. In 1980, the Professional Basketball Writers Association named Russell as the greatest player in NBA history. He had retired 11 years earlier after a remarkable record that, in all likelihood, will go unmatched. He played 13 seasons in the NBA and his teams won 11 NBA championships, including eight in a row. It lost in the Finals one year when he was hurt. Nobody, not even Jordan, put up numbers like that.
Russell completely revolutionized the game. Until he came around, the notion that a defensive-oriented center could dominate and control a game was unthinkable. But he did. He did it with a combination of amazing athleticism (he also was a high jumper at the University of San Francisco), timing, jumping ability and, above all else, intelligence. There probably weren’t many games when Russell played that he wasn’t the smartest player on the floor.
There was no model for Bill Russell when he entered the NBA in the 1956-57 season. He wasn’t the logical “Next Player XX.’ He set the mold. The Celtics had a good team when he joined them – as opposed to Jordan, who joined a terrible Chicago team – but it had never so much as advanced to the NBA Finals, even with Hall of Famers like Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman on the roster. Russell changed all that – and in his very first season.
Jordan, too, revolutionized the game in one aspect: no guard had ever led a team to the success the Bulls had in the 1990s. While he seemed to be the logical descendant of Elgin Baylor and Julius Erving, they never matched his success. Jordan won three titles with Luc Longley for goodness sakes.
But back to the winning. Here is a remarkable statistic that cuts right to the chase. Over his basketball career, including college, Olympics and the NBA, Bill Russell participated in 21 games which, for lack of a better term, can be called “winner take all” games. His record in those games: 21-0. In the NBA alone, Russell competed in 11 such games, 10 Game 7’s and one Game 5 in a best-of-fiver. The Celtics won all of them.
Jordan first played in a winner-take-all game in the NBA in 1988, his fourth year in the league, when the Bulls won Game 5 against the Cavs. They won another Game 5 the following year (“The Shot” against the Cavaliers) and then lost in 1990 to the Pistons in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals. The only other Game 7’s on Jordan’s resume were in 1992 (second round against the Knicks) and 1998 (Eastern Conference Finals against Indiana.) The Bulls won those as well.
That was Jordan’s time and while the Bulls didn’t dominate the way Russell’s Celtics dominated, they were pretty much unbeatable over an eight-year stretch. (They might well have won in 1994, without Jordan, save for a brutal officiating call against the Knicks in the second round of the playoffs.)
You couldn’t escape Jordan or the Bulls during that span. Cable television, ESPN, sports talk radio – all of that started to emerge or was emerging as the Bulls began their run. By then, of course, the NBA playoffs were televised and the Finals were in prime time.
But who saw Russell all those years, other than the fans at the games? There was scant television coverage. There basically was Johnny Most’s not-to-be-missed accounts from “high above courtside” and the newspaper morgues. That was it.
But they did play the games in the 1950s and 1960s.
Yes, you could argue that Russell benefited from a shorter season, not as much travel, a lighter playoff schedule. All of that is true. But Russell averaged an astonishing 42.3 minutes a game (second only to Wilt Chamberlain’s 45.8.) He battled Wilt, Oscar, Bob Pettit, Elgin and Jerry West on an annual basis. After Russell’s very first playoff game, Dolph Schayes, himself a future Hall of Famer, wondered how much Russell made and whether his team could put together enough cash to pay Russell to stop playing for five years.
I didn’t come to bury Jordan. I came to praise Russell. Michael deserves the accolades and the acclaim, but if the gold standard in sports is winning, and it should be, then no one was greater than Bill Russell. Twenty-nine years ago he was deemed the best in NBA history. Seems like a keeper to me.
Alex Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 5:59 pm
Mike never had such as good teammates, as Bill. Mike never had a dominant big playing with him.
So…..Mike is the best….so far))
Dave Smith Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 6:20 pm
Russel was a dominating defensive force on great teams. Jordan was the best player in the league at both defense and offense. Jordan gets the edge in my book. Russell 4th behind Chamberlain and Oscar.
FLash Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 6:27 pm
Bill Russel is a legend.
As a basketball played there is noway he matches JOrdan.
Just check Russels shooting %’s.
Terrible for a big man.
Sure there are more factors to differentiate them.
Also, during his time the league was full of players that couldn’t finish with both hands and dribbled while looking at the ground, not to mention the average height would have been much lower.
It is just ridiculous to compare all these stats anyways.
Andrew Wamboldt Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 6:45 pm
There is no way that Bill Russell can be considered as the best basketball player of all time. The best basketball player of all time has to be a complete player. Russell only could play one side of the ball.
Russell was a pathetic offensive player. He has a career 47.1 TS%. He only had 15.1 PPG, which isn’t that high of a scoring volume, and he did that on a PATHETIC efficiency.
Bill Russell is Ben Wallace at best if you pace adjust the stats.
There is no record of Russell’s block stats, so that part of his game is all based on urban legend. (Not to say that he was a bad shotblocker, just that memories of what his block stats may be are probably exaggerated).
His rebounding numbers are impressive, but you have to keep in mind that he played in an era where that had probably around 20-25 more possessions for a game at the least, had worse offensive players, thus more missed shots, thus more available rebounds. Also important to keep in mind that the players that Russell was rebounding against were much inferior than the players that the currrent guys have to go against.
Mike Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
Great arguments, but bill Rusells was a dominant force defensively, what about on offense? Jordan did the work on both ends of the work not only leading the NBA in scoring but also archiving Defensive player of the year award to go along with several All Defensive Team. I agree with the winning but not being the greatest, winnings is a big part of it but not the whole thing. Anybody who has played the game at a high level would probably agree that Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time. What Russell accomplished is unmatchable; however, what Jordan brought to the game not only with his talent but all the winning that came along with it it’s an standard any player should try to reach. Just my opinion from playing the game, seeing many games of Jordan and a few of Russell. Jordan’s work ethic and talent was a combination never before seen. He’s by far the greatest of his time and the greatest of all time in my opinion, anybody can make a case for other players. They all deserve respect for winning, but whoever watch MJ played and seen what he did on both ends of the court knows deep down that he’s the Greates basketball player of ALL TIME…
Jake Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
I’ve always believed Russell is the greatest of all-time. You can take your pace-adjusted stats, your complete player argument, your percentages and talk all you want. The fact of the matter is 11 in 13 years, 8 in a row, and the greatest defender (which win’s championships) speaks for itself. Because we all know Russell, never the media hog, won’t.
David Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 8:05 pm
Not to mention if Jordan wouldn’t have lost so many years due to him retireing. I’m sure he could of came closer to Russell in number of championships won. Russell was great…. But Jordan was greater hands down.
Steve Watkins Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 8:31 pm
I love to see articles like this because it put focus on what the game is all about - winning. There is so much hype in today’s game over statistics, particularly scoring -and too many people have become delusional over what it means to be great. People see a guy who averages 30 a game on 42 per cent shooting on a mediocre team and say he bolongs in the Hall of Fame. MJ was the same as Russell in that all he cared about was winning. MJhad a great comment in his inductance speech tonight - someone told him that there is no I in “team” and he responded that yes but there is an I in “win”. If he needed to delegate some responsibilities to his teammates in order to win, he did it . If he needed to do everything himself in order to win, he did that too. Whatever it took to win - he did it. Comparing MJ’s wins to Russels is a little unfair because MJ broke in with a lottery team and Russel didn’t. However, Russel never gets enough credit for all of his wins because he didn’t have the huge offensive stats that many others had. That is BS though because RUSSEL DIDN”T NEED TO HAVE HUGE OFFENSIVE STATS IN ORDER TO WIN. Russel had guys like Sharman and Sam Jones who could shoot the lights out so he delegated those responsibilities to them. Bottom line is that Russell carried that Celtic team to 11 championships and made those players on his team into Hall of Famers. They never would have won without him. Russell and Jordan were equally great.
God Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 9:08 pm
the epitomy of NBA is Bill not Michael…
whilst, the original definition of NBA is National Bill Association. Hopefully someone can ask Michael of what he thinks of all your ramifications, I am definite that Michael will say… I can never be greater than Bill.
ZHereford Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 9:37 pm
Touché!!!
I’ve always been a fan of the great Bill Russell!
kdotbdot Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 9:42 pm
First off I do not consider myself any kind of expert. I’ve also never saw Bill Russell play, but when it comes to this question I put him ahead of Jordan….its just an opinion so dont get mad, I understand the other side of the argument too but…
Jordan did not have to play in the hostile world that Bill had to play in. By the time Jordan came into the league black players were already part of the game. But Bill played at a high level and won while constantly in hostile territory. I am sure he heard a lot of comments and not only from opposing fans, situations in which players like Ron Artest would be jumping into the crowd :O). On top of that they were not paid a whole lot and they didnt have charter planes (including the white players). This dude and the other black pioneers made it possible for Jordan to even exist, so when we talk all-time and really put everything into context including the times they played in I have to give it to the pioneer. However Jordan is without doubt the greatest player of the “modern era” of basketball.
noyb Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 10:04 pm
Bill Russell was at least as great a player as Michael Jordan. You can speculate all you want to about “What If” as far as Jordan winning more than six titles, but the FACT is that Russell won ELEVEN. And that stuff about strength of competition is crap. Who did the Bulls beat? An old Lakers team with Vlady Divacs? Clyde Drexler? Charles Barkley? Gary Payton? Malone? PUHLEAZZZEE! Jordan competition was not one bit more difficult than Russell’s. Here’s a tip of my cap to you Mr. Russell. Those who really think and do their research know the truth!
george acropolis Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 10:07 pm
Russell had the great team around him.. but if Jordan had a great team around him he wouldn’t have averaged around 20 points per game. He wouldn’t have dominated the ball so readily.. Russell dominated defensively as well as being an offensive weapon.. case closed. Oscar Robinson dominated the ball like jordan and put up similar numbers except for winning tittles. His teams were terrible.. And remember no 3 point shot or easy asists to boost the Big O’s numbers.. I saw all three play..
dan Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 10:08 pm
Russell won a lot but there weren’t that many teams to compete against
there wasn’t that much competition in Russell’s era compared to jordan’s era
Also Jordan by far was more talented and skilled which should be a factor in determining the GOAT (greatest of all time)
Bat Puchanan Said,
September 11, 2009 @ 10:13 pm
Why don’t you match like with like?
Okay so Russ was 21-0 in deciding Olympic/college/NBA games, but then you mention that Jordan went 4-1 in NBA game 7’s. What happened to his two Olympics and one NBA Finals? Seems Jordan should be credited with at least 7-1, no?
Yet the fact that the classic Celtics needed so many game 7’s to win their titles makes them seem less dominant than the Bulls which never needed a Game 7 to bag their 6 championships. So I don’t see how pointing out that Russell’s Celts won so many NBA Finals Game 7’s makes Russell better than Jordan who could lead/will his team to Rings in a more comfortable, more dominant 5 or 6 games.
Tighten up the logic.
Lakerfan24 Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 1:24 am
WOW!! Finally someone bring up the name of Bill Russell as the greatest of all time…Listen,I’m a hard core LAKERS fan and even myself recognized the greatness of Russell and what he did for the NBA…for all you new kids on the block,without Russell there’s NO JORDAN at all.PERIOD.No NBA at all….not joke,Russell did for the NBA what the Beatles did to the music industry.Russell in my opinion is the greatest player to ever played the game of basketball,Russell was fundamental,the essence and soul of the sport….Jordan was a evolution of the sport,the globalization of the sport….man, you switch this 2 players in time,and all of you guys will be kissing the floor that Russell walked if he played it in the 90’s…that’s just IHHO….
Andre Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 2:51 am
I agree Bill is the greatest “Basketball Player” Ever.. Jordan was great and amazing athlete who played in a system that allowed success when PJ brought in the Triangle…Bill Russell could have scored 40 points a game if the team needed it, he didnt becuase he wanted to win so he did what was needed allowing others to score and he won almost all the time on every level.
There are only two “basketball players” in the History of the game that could dominate a game without scoring a single point… Bill Russel and Magic Johnston.
Stephen Janetzki Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 3:50 am
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Michael Jordan
Just my opinion
john Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 5:03 am
peter how dare you even post this article, bill is not even in the top 3 best player, let alone the best..smh
Jake Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 5:18 am
Also, who was MJ’s biggest rival? Sure, the Pistons Bad Boys played him hard, and he had some battles with the Knicks/C’s, but there was never really anybody in Jordan’s era who was a top competitor.
And I understand Jordan was a great defender…but let’s not forget MJ had Scottie Pippen, who is one of the greatest perimeter defender’s of all-time.
Russell, meanwhile, was combating Wilt, a top 5 all-time player, year in, year out, with NO help from teammates. It’s not like Heinsohn and Russell switched to give Wilt a new look.
However, I don’t agree that it goes Russell/Wilt/Kareem/MJ. I think it goes Russell/MJ, hands down.
You can make a case for any of them.
Jams Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 6:09 am
Jordan is the best. No discussion.
JBEAN Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 7:09 am
Russel was unquestionably great, but if he were transposed into a generation in which teams with poor records got the best players, and the average size of nba personel is close to his stature, his winning percentage would be far less impressive. Basketball is a team sport and a single player can not completely dictate a teams success. Jordan did not win until surrounded with great talent and arguably Kobe’s greatest seasons came in years of first round exit playing with a dreadful supporting cast. The talent of the celtic’s dynasty in comparison to the rest of the league was much greater than in Jordan’s era or our current era. Thus, though maybe the most important aspect of judging a player is bye his team’s success it can not be the only criteria for the argument. One thing is certain, Jordan is a true Icon, only rivaled in sports by Ali, his unique flair and determination inspired a generation of greats. Because of Jordan’s success we now can see his echo through Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Carmelo, T-mac, Carter exc. We all still want to be like Mike.
LC Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 9:03 am
There were 9 teams and no free agency back then. If you lucked into a great team, you really didn’t have to worry about losing anyone to anything other than retirement, death, or injury.
Kwame Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 9:04 am
Kareem is the greatest. Check his accomplishments. He did it defensively as well. The only yhing he doesnt have is Defensive Player Of The Year but. There was never anyone that dominated on Every level like Kareem did. Jordan had more marketability than Kareem but thats it. He made Magic, Worthy,Cooper,Scott,etc etc.
Sean Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 10:37 am
few things to think about..
-two different eras. No one will ever win 11 chips in 13 seasons ever again. The game and league have evolved to the point that that just isn’t possible.
-if Jordan did’t retire (twice) while in his prime he very well may have had 11 rings when it was all said and done.
-Russell was a great player an a great team. Jordan was a great player on a good team.
-Russell dominated one side of the floor. Jordan dominated both. Pretty sure down the stretch if the Celtics needed to score the ball wasn’t going into Russell.
JAY Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 11:13 am
One word about Bill Russell OVERRATED
Elder213 Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 11:25 am
You guys are all wrong. The greatest player of all time is my cousin. Sure, he never made it to the NBA and frequently turned the ball over in pick up games but he could dribble with both hands pretty good (something Bill could never do). He also didn’t have sneakers named after him so he had to do it without the support that Jordan had. He wasn’t tall like Kareem but I saw him block a shot with his eyes closed. I hope you guys get the point. Forget about comparing apples to oranges. Get off your overweight rears, stop engaging in senseless debates, and go play some basketball yourselves.
Jackson Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
Peter May. Glad you wrote this article. It needed to be written. Yes, Russ has great talent around him (including his coach), but for sheer domination of a sport over a long period of years, no one has ever come close. Russell’s adaptability as the game changed and evolved over his career was astonishing. Taking nothing away from Jordan, but Michael had to “learn” how to win. Russ “taught” his team how to win.
The difference between Russell and Jordan was one thing. Publicity! If Russell had been a “media darling” and had modern exposure opportunities available to him, we can hardly imagine how big he could have been in the public mind. Glad he didn’t. He was great enough as it was.
Note: Russell player-coached two NBA Championship teams, which is an accomplishment Jordan has never attempted.
chris simoneau Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 12:20 pm
for anyone who has wilt ahead of bill, well, your just dead wrong. Stop looking at PPG only. People who dont know the game shouldnt comment on it.
top 10
1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Magic(only reason magic is ahead of Bird is more titles)
4. Bird
5. Jabbar(yes, he was better than wilt. he won)
6. Shaq
7. Big O
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Lebron(i know, i know, no titles, young. i dont care, he might be around 2 or 3 when it is all said and done)
Stan Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 1:44 pm
Though MJ is without a doubt one of the greatest of all times. Russell in his prime was the hardest working player to ever step on the court. I never saw him make a half hearted attempt on either end of the court, something todays players should learn. IMHO Bill Russell will always be the greatest to ever lace up a pair of sneakers
georgej Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 2:20 pm
What a bunch of BS. MJ was all about winning. He would adjust his own game so that he could win. He would defend if he had to. He owuld score, he would block shots, rebound, whatever was needed to win. Russell played with a bunch of HOF-ers. MJ played against a bunch of HOF-ers. Jordan was a complete player.
Barkley once said of Jordan he was the only player in the history with no weaknesses. He owuld score at will - blow by you for a dunk, jump high above the rim, below the rim, low post, high post, jump shot, mid range, long range, circus shots, hook shots, foul shots, finger rolls, dunks, he practically invented the fade-away jump shot. He was virtually unstoppable on the offensive end and took a team effort to stop him and even then he would still drop 30-35 on them.
MJ was a lock down defender. If MJ was guarding you, forget it. You couldn’t go by him, around him, through him. He was big, strong, quick. You’d be afraid to pass around him lest he steals the ball. Then he’d come back and posterize you on the other end.
He was a tremendous passer as well. He would pass with the precision of a point guard and out of double teams like a center . He was a great rebounder and he would even block shots when he needed to.
MJ was 10 times, read that well, 10 times all offense and all-defense team. The only time he wasn’t both was his rookie season, his injury season, 17 games of come back, and the two in Washington when he was 40 and even at 40 he still dropped 50 once.
If MJ had not retired twice he would’ve had all the individual accomplishments you can imagine like passed Jabar for all time scoring (come on he would’ve had 40,000 points) and at least 4-5 more titles and possibly 10 in a row.
shay Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
i do think mj is the best….BUT i love what this article says on Russel. the guy deserves a lot of credit….but with everything said, russel only made the all nba first team 3 times!!! therefore you cant even put him ahead of wilt since voters then said year after year in both their primes wilt was considered better than russel….thats what i think anyways
Robert Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 8:22 pm
No offense to Russell, but in any fantasy all-time draft Jordan gets picked first 99% of the time.
Jordan is definately the first 2 guard off the board.
Russel isn’t even the second pick, (Magic, Wilt, Kareem), with even Bird, Shaq and Olajajuan maybe going ahead of him. Heck, many might be tempted by Oscar, Baylor and West ahead of Russell.
In fact, Russell would not likely be the first center taken, I would go with Wilt first, Kareem second, with Russell being the 3rd,4rth, or even 5th center taken.
Russell, would have been lucky to get 6 championships(Michael and Kareem) in the modern era(1980 on if not 1970). He was a product of his era of limited competition, and the Celtics mastery at taking advantage of the less sophisticated competition. The Celtics under Auerbach were the professional equivalent of John Wooden’s UCLA program.
During Russell’s first 8 championships(1966) only 3 teams made the playoffs in each conference out of only 4 teams per conference to begin with. Thats right an 8 team league. The #1(mostly the Celtics) seed got a by in the first round, so the Celtics only had to win one series to get to the finals.
Additionally, in the early years the “conference championship” series was only 5 games, only the NBA championship series went 7 games.
In 1967 the league expanded to 14 total teams, 7 per conference, and the playoffs expanded to a whopping 4 teams per conference and the Celtics for the first time had to play 2 series to reach the finals.
Anyone else think that the Celtics might have slipped up a few times against more competition, never mind just plain better.
In the end, you can’t dispute that Russell is the greatest winner of all-time, but that doesn’t make him the greatest player ever. Robert Horry(7) has more rings than anyone other than Russell, does that make him the second greatest player.
jimmy Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 9:09 pm
How many teams were in the league when Jordan played and won his six rings and six finals mvps. (between 27 and 30) and how many teams were in the league when russell won his titles with the celtics and no mvps? Only 8.
Jordan smashes Russell, end of story.
Dan Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 11:02 pm
Are we talking peak performance or career?
If we are talking peak performance for a reasonable stretch like 3-4 years, the players should be ranked as follows. (Note: The nba right now is at its strongest ever since there hasn’t been expansion in a while to dilute the talent and the nba is benefitting from the increased interest in the game of basketball in Europe, Asia etc. Jordan like some other players in this list played several years in which the nba was weaker then the mid to late 80’s since part of his era got watered down due to expansion)
1) Shaq — would be lower in the list if offensive fouls were called how they should have been but at his peak he was the most unstoppable basketball force due to his ridiculous strength and athleticism. And his willingness to score with brute force.
Russell. If we are just counting championships, then he is number 1.
2) Lebron. — so far in his career, he is playing with very mediocre talent in a league top to bottom that is stronger then what Jordan faced. Jordan and Kobe both have more skills then Lebron but Lebron is a superior athlete/physical specimen then even Jordan who was a better athlete then Kobe. Lebron nearly equals Karl Malone’s strength with athleticism that equals Jordan’s and frankly that is better then the less physically imposing Jordan. Lebron is faster, taller and MUCH stronger then Jordan. Jordan could jump a little higher and was quicker laterally. Jordan could shoot better but Lebron can pass better. When Jordan played with trash(Chicago before Pippen), he never won a playoff series and while Lebron has played with trash, he has already made the finals once and threatened to make it again.
3) Hakeem. He never played with a truly great player at the top of his game but he did have the luxury of playing with a handful of good to very good players. A declining Clyde Drexler doesn’t really count as a truly great player at that time.
4) David Robinson… — don’t blame him for playing with TRASH in the prime of his career and for not matching up that well with Hakeem’s at his peak. If he had players of the calibre of Pippen– a top 15 player of all-time, Rodman/Grant and Kukoc backing him up, he would have won 78-82 games and not just 72 like Pippen/Jordan did. Instead, Robinson, in the prime of his career before his injuries, played with often overrated trash compared to Russell, Jordan, Bird and Magic. What Robinson did with his college team as a one many team was incredible and legendary. Until recently, Allen Iverson was the most overrated supposed superstar in nba history while Robinson is the most underrated superstar in nba history. (Duncan will end up with the Spur with the best career due to longevity but Robinson was clearly more dominant at his peak)
5) Jordan… remember the Bulls almost made the NBA finals without him! Imagine what Lebron or Robinson at his peak could do if either was added to a team that could win 57 games without him. Jordan is the best basketball player ever who isn’t over 6″6 but big players do have an advantage in basketball and that is the primary reason I have him rated lower in this list then more physically imposing superstars.
6) Bird. He turned around the dreadful Celtics before the sometimes overrated Parish and McHale were added to the team.
7) Magic. — had a slightly better career then Bird due to moderately more longevity but Bird at his best was slightly better. The Lakers won more championship since the Celtics played in a tougher conference and they suffered less injuries and often had the better bench.
9) Wilt.
10) Kareem. Clearly a great basketball player with an unstoppable shot.
11) Walton. Career cut short by injuries but was dominant at his best.
Don’t think I am underrating Jordan.. He is the only player in this list that didn’t have the size to at least play PF.
Michael Jordan Said,
September 12, 2009 @ 11:43 pm
I just wrote this statement in the Jordan article by his buggest fan Lazenby. Russell not having offense, which isn’t true (he just didn’t feel the need to hold the ball and shoot all the time like Chamberlain, because he knew the idea of team ball) doesn’t matter because he dominated the game from the defense. Blocking shots and rebounding then immediately starting the fast break with an outlet pass (which he perfected).
You can’t compare their style of play, but certainly you can compare their impact on the NBA, and Russell was the first hall of famer (maybe with the exception of Mikkelson) who could dominate in the conventional role player position. While Jordan and Chamberlain (and AI and Kobe) all score a ton of points and are fun to watch, the fundamental game prevails over flash, and Russell is the original Big Fundamental.
Glad someone decided to write this article, because the deification of Jordan is excessive and often uninformed.
Carlos Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 1:30 am
You know I hear all these arguments about Jordan being the greatest and Russell playing in a league with only 9 other teams etc. However, Russell, Wilt, Oscar Robertson et al didn’t get “superstar” calls (which I really hate).
There is no denying Jordan was one of the greats of the game, but he played in league with 30 teams….including some really sorry teams full of retreads, has beens and never were’s (ie: Vancouver Grizzlies. LA Clippers). So the overall talent is a lot more watered down then it was back in the day.
Also, the NBA is all about marketing and creating superstars. Can you imagine what Wilt could’ve done getting superstar calls all the time? That game where he scored 100 points? If he got the superstar treatment that Jordan got, he might’ve scored 150!
What about the Big O who averaged a triple double FOR HIS CAREER, on some sorry ass teams, until Kareem arrived and they won a championship! Can you imagine what his numbers would’ve been like, getting the “superstar” treatment?
This MJ is the greatest of all time, no questions asked, is a crock. It’s a lot of marketing and favoritism of this era. Somebody try and tell me Jordan didn’t push Byron Russell before taking that last shot to win game 6 against the Jazz. It was obvious, but you don’t call that against Michael Jordan, because “he is MJ and we won’t sell as much merchandise if Russell is in his face and he misses”. The guy was already the best player in the league……but we are going to give him an additional advantage. Hello?
Okay, I’m getting off the soapbox. Jordan is one of the greats, no doubt about it; but you can’t call him the best of all time because there isn’t a definitive way to determine that.
Marco Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 8:50 am
This is a good article. I am a lifelong Boston Celtics fan but I have to say that Jordan has the slight edge even though Russell won more.
Today’s Celtics Links 9/13 | Boston Sports Nation Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 9:05 am
[...] Dimemag Love/Hate for Jordan at the Hall; Iverson helps Memphis immediately Hoopshype Russell up there with MJ Celtics Circuit Why We Like Bill Walker Yahoo Russell to Jordan: Game on Jordan’s [...]
RTroy Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 11:23 am
I guess it is natural for this generation to place the greatest tag on Michael Jordan. My biggest problem is that they have really never seen Bill Russell
and watched how great he was. Bill Russell changed the game of basketball and introduced the word “defense” to his team. He played the game with such desire, but always caring for the guys playing beside him.
As Bill has said so many times, He could not go to Heaven, because he has already been there playing for the Celtics.
I have such a problem with this crowning of Michael Jordan. Sure, he was great, no doubt about that. Was he the greatest? Hell,no.
Bob Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 11:28 am
Anyone who doesn’t know MJ is the greatest athlete of all time, not just basketball player just doesn’t get it, i feel bad for you. MJ is the greatest
Thor Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 1:09 pm
I think there is acually a pretty simple answer to this.
Look at MJ. I’m going to line up some categories that he surdenly mastered.
1. competitiveness
2. Heart
3. stats
4. the winning
5. sportsmanship
6. showoff/athleticism
Now many greats has been just as good or even better than Michael in some of these categories, like Russel in winning, and big O and Wilt in stats and and Vince Carter or Dr. J in showoff/athleticism, and so on. But no one, and I meen NO ONE has ever done it all on such a high level as Michael Jordan. HANDS DOWN!
kobefan Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 1:42 pm
wtf are you talking about guys??
KOBE is the best player in the UNIVERSE of all time!!!!
he’s a god!!!!
kobefan Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
you guys really made me laugh.
if only bill and mj play in this era, bill will be like kwame brown and jordan will be jordan…..
farmar that is….
westwood Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
If you were to put stromile swift, jonathan bender, leon powe, kenny skywalker, gerald wallace, heck even john wallace in russel’s era they would DOMINATE. Bill played average defense on below average players, none of them would even be in the NBDL today. I cant knock him for playing in that era but we all know just like with wilt he would not dominate today.
georgej Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
I already posted once, but the more I thought about that article the more pissed I got.
I mean come on, dude, whoever the f. you are, Peter May, GIVE MJ A BREAK. This is his day. MJ’s not yours. He is inducted into the Hall of Fame. Couldn’t you just keep your buttcheeks shut for a day and not poop the party? Would you not have the slightest f***ing respect please for the guy whom you proably awe having a job writing this dumb article in the first place. The NBA was going nowhere if it weren’t for MJ, so the least you can do is show some respect and write the stupid article three days later, or week.
You just remind me of the dumb, fat, chick with the thick rimmed glasses that starts yelling and crying at a cocktail party because someone said “cat” and her cat had just died. Are you seriously in that much need of attention?
Who is the Hoopshype.com Editor? Doesn’t he/she have some respect for the guy to allow an article like this one?
georgej Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 2:58 pm
When Bill and Wilt played the average hight in the NBA was like 6′5″. Wilt look like a giant. That’s why the called him the Stilt. And so did Russell. I am not taking anything away from Mr. Russell who was a grear player and one shjould only judge people based on the fact that they were able to rise above the competition. I am sure if Mr. Russell played today he would be just as great because his will and determination would’ve made him rise above the stronger conmpetition as well. Similar with MJ. If he did not have the competition he had he might’ve never reached those hights.
For those who think that when MJ played the NBA was weak. Look at the list of 50 greatest players. MJ played against half of them and that list does not even have Dominique Wilkins, Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton, Mullin, Dumars, AI, Reggie Miller, Alonzo Morning, and many othe perennial all-stars and future hall of famers. So, read up a little.
Jacob Said,
September 13, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
It’s hard for me to compare the two. I didn’t grow up watching Russell. I barely got to Magic and Bird unless it was the playoffs. However, the more that I read about Russell, the more influential his game appears to me as a fan of basketball. I have never been a fan of comparing players that never cross paths or played different positions. Russell was a great student of the game and he played during a time when being a black athlete was difficult. His mental toughness and ability to win in the fact of that alone is impressive.
Jordan is an icon. Rightfully so in most respects. He was a rare player. He had all the talent in the world and determination to work hard. They have been many players with great talent but few have had Jordan’s drive to take the wind out of a opposing team’s sail. As soon as you slept on Jordan he did someone to make you lose. As a fan of the game, it makes no difference to me about who’s greater. I haven’t had the luxury of the watching all the greats in order to even make an educated guess. I just know that Jordan was the greatest player that I have seen in my lifetime.
Jordan was a better individual player but Russell was arguably the better basketball student. Russell was a great coach and a great player. Few people have been both.
Ortho Said,
September 14, 2009 @ 3:46 am
By your argument, Robert Horry is greater than Jordan.
stlouispacer Said,
September 14, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
interesting comparison. I am going for Russell here because I have seen enough tape of him to know his impact on the game- and yes Jordan was great. But Russell used his status to help in the the civil rights struggle. he was there in DC with ML King for the historical demonstrations and supported Ali when things got tough. I have never seen Jordan do anything off the court that didnt help his bank account. and if I want one of these guys to be a role model for my kids- its Russell ( even though he was cranky there for a long time). think about it- who is the better man. the player debate is even, the human debate is a no contest- and jordan increased the gap with his hof speech. tm
Eric Said,
September 14, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
Can Someone who has some knoledge on Russell tell me how Bill Russell compares to Dwight Howard.
stlouispacer Said,
September 14, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
for Eric. both seem to block shots from strange angles. russell terrorized offensive players by helping on defense with blocks and coming from all angles to surprise with those blocks. Howard does some of this with his quickness but has more strength then br. russell was about 6 10 and played at 230 lbs or so. built more like garnett of the celts. howard is developing a good turnaround shot but still scores mostly (likebr) on dunks and putbacks. brussell was a great runner on both d and offense and chased down many a surprised player to block a layup. br averaged unofficially about 4 blocks or a bit more per game. howard can probably match that down the road. starting the break with outlet passing? br a master. br is more like Hakeem O (minus offensive moves)and a good passer where howard might be more chamberlain-like.howard runs the court really well kije br. the two have met and talked a bit (br also spent some time with oden talking). br played 13 yrs. 11 championships. was the first black head coach of a major sport(celts-player coach). both dw and br = poor ft. br was MEAN on the floor. dh is tough but seems to enjoy the game. tom
stlouispacer Said,
September 14, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
also. russell has written and cowritten several books from the 60s thru 2009 that folks might take a look at for basketball and life stories. his early ones are great and the one about red a. from the celts is also good. my comments above mean no disrespect to m jordans game- he was great as a player. i respect russell as a great player and a great man.
Larry Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 11:20 am
Russell shot 44% for his career and 43% in the playoffs, if he was soo good good then why didn’t he shoot better and this was a center. Goes to show his teammates carried him. Also if a player averages more rebounds than points it means they are one dimensional. Russell is pretty much a Marcus Camby or Ben Wallace in this era.
Sonnie Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 11:44 am
MJ… and its not even close… indeed Boston won 8 in a row, they’re are 6 or more HOF’ers on those team. MJ on the other hand will have one other and thats Scottie P. MJ took basketball to the next level, was the best player in the league for at least 12 yrs. Rusell had to battle Wilt. But MJ, had Magic, Bird,Clyde, Reggie Lewis, Dominique, Dumars, Ron Harper, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, John Starks and many others tryiig to dethrone him. the Celtics were winner b4 Russel got there, Chicago were known losers and only 1 person made them relevant again. THE G.O.A.T Michael Jeffery Jordan… Russell is third behind Wilt ( the 3 second /goaltending rule was created because of him)…
sully00 Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 1:46 pm
If Jordan didn’t score 30 ppg no one would have ever mentioned his defense. As dominant as Wilt was he was a non factor defensively, Kareem was a better all around big man. Russell could have been a bigger offensive factor but that wasn’t what his team needed to win. You can talk about teammates all you want but you can skip over opponents. Bill Russell and Scottie Pippen would have won championships against the opponents that Jordan faced. Could Jordan and the Celts minus Russell dominated Wilt and the rest of that era? I think not.
Porky Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
Great article. Total, sound logic because WINNING is everything.
DOD Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
Let’s say your Starting your own franchise…..who do you pick?
sure Russel won, but he certainly is not somone to carry a team on both ends and make everyone else around him better like Jordan did. Russel was an amazing defender on a stacked team in a time where there was not an abundance of talent (or teams) and supreme athleticism.
MJ could do it all, both ends and did it with only one (potential) HOFer. Pippen.
MJ is the GOAT.
Frank B Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 3:46 pm
Wilt Chamberlain was a non-factor defensively? Even statistically Wilt was a big factor, do you forget that rebounding is part of defense? Go look up his rebounding stats sometimes.
Phil Jackson has a funny story about Wilt Chamberlain. When Phil played for the Knicks, early in his career he snuck up behind Wilt and blocked his shot.
Phil reports that Wilt looked at him, like, what the hell do you think you’re doing?
From that point on, Phil says it seemed like Wilt blocked every shot that Phil tried to take. The lesson was don’t get the big guy angry.
So many guys belong in the discussion of who is the greatest player of all time besides Jordan and Russell. Wilt Chamberlain is certainly one of them.
Wilt never conceded that Bill Russell was better than he was. What Wilt said is that Russell usually played on a better team. Basketball is a team game.
You know, what does the best player mean anyway? Is it the guy with the most championships? That’s Bill Russell.
The most unstoppable force on offense? Sorry, that’s not Michael Jordan, it’s either Chamberlain or Jabbar. Do you really think Jordan was so good on defense that he could have slowed down the Sky Hook? Quit dreamin. The only guy I ever saw block the Sky Hook was Wilt. Post up Wilt or Kareem or Shaq for that matter against Jordan one on one and his little guard body is going to get used.
The greatest defender? Bill Russell.
Who averaged a triple double? Oscar Robertson.
Who was the most entertaining? Well, now that’s where Jordan comes to the top of the heap. I personally enjoyed watching Dr. J. the most; his combination of intelligence, athleticism, style, and class was to me the greatest.
But Jordan was kind of like Michael Jackson. You might not have liked him, but if he was performing, you couldn’t take your eyes off of him.
georgej Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 4:13 pm
Frank, my friend, first of all it’s not even fair to compare Big and Small for 1-on-1. They each could score on each other without problems, though I’d guess MJ would have benn able to steal a hell of a lot more balls from Wilt, on defense, than Wilt would have been able to block him. Just a hunch.
You probably did not read my first post here, but the best player in any sport is the player that can play every aspect of the game at a very high level. MICHAEL JORDAN HAD NO WEAKNESSES. I dare you to name one. Plese don’t think that MJ scored 30 ppg because that was his goal. MJ would’ve scored 50 ppg if he wanted to. He only wanted to win and he played in a team oriented system and only because of his efficiency was he scoring 30ppg. So, don’t go with the “could’ve-should’ve” argument please. A lot of great players today would be in the 30ppg and not the 22-25ppg if they had Jordan’s efficiency.
Also the Sky hook was the most unstoppable offensive weapon and Jabar had it down to pefection. However, if you can push him out of the comfort range of the sky hook, he id not have much else. And many teams were able to do so. MJ was unstoppable because no one, not even the entire team could stop him. The guy had every conceivable offensive weapon at his disposal. He could drive through the whole defense and dunk on your center. He had the mid-range and long range jumper if you give some space, and the turn around jumper. If you play him close, he would blow by you in an instant. I mean name it he had it. The guy was so quick, the refs used to call him for travelling until the Bulls sent the league a slo-mo tape to show them he wasn’t.
Frank B Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
Of course it is not fair to compare a big and small. That is my point. Jordan didn’t have a chance to cover the bigs.
Of course conversely, the bigs can’t cover the smalls either. It is why “the greatest” thing is kind of silly. It is why basketball teams don’t line up 5 guards or 5 centers.
The no weaknesses thing is nonsense. He was a flawed human like everyone else, yelling at teammates, petty arguments that have never gone away, he wasn’t a great passer, and he didn’t necessarily make his teammates better in the way that Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson did. He also had a gambling problem.
Kareem didn’t have much else? Go back and watch him do the drop step to perfection. Or take a look at how classic his regular jump shot looked like. The young Lew Alcindor could do anything. The older 40 year old Kareem was still busting them. Watching Lew Alcindor go against Wilt Chamberlain was one of the greatest things to watch of all time.
If you think Michael could have averaged 50, I want some of what you are smoking.
DS Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
To many Jordan dickrider on here lol
LA Guy Said,
September 15, 2009 @ 11:11 pm
Kareen was the greatest high school player who won 3 state titles, the college level he won 3 NCAA championships, and the pro level he won 6 titles and 6 MVP awards. He had the only shot that was unstoppable.
Let’s face it, he was flamboyant like MJ or Magic. He was just the best!!
Jeff Said,
September 16, 2009 @ 9:39 am
It’s an impossible argument. You can’t argue about this due to the fact that they played 30-40 years apart. There have been so many changes in both the game and athelete, it would be like comparing a car built now and one built in the 50’s. Why not leave it at this. Bill was the best player during his time, and Jordan the best during his. If you were making a team with the best player at each position, you would be safe to say that both of these guys would be there.
And Andrew Wamboldt …..you must not watch much basketball if your trying to compare Bill Russell to Ben Wallace. Feel your head man.
kyle Said,
September 16, 2009 @ 3:30 pm
KOBE WILL BE IN THIS DISCUSSION AFTER HE RETIRES
Jax Said,
September 16, 2009 @ 11:56 pm
Stupid article, although Russell won many championships - he and no one could ever be compared to Jordan. During his time, how many teams are there? Who are his teammates? How tall is the next big guy to him except Wilt? How many great players are there in the league at that time? 11 championships is unmatchable, 8 in a row even more.
However, if Mike didn’t retire, I don’t think that 8 in a row for the Bulls is a long shot. How many players - great players, HOF worthy - in Jordan’s era did he play with that never won a championship because of him? Who are his teammates aside from Scottie, Dennis and Horace? Who has the highest scoring average in his entire career? MVPs? Who dominated the game at both ends? Jordan didn’t play as much do-or-die games as Russell because it almost never came down to it - thats how good he was. 72-10!
But all this is bullshit, the argument that players played in different eras always comes up when it comes to this. So, I say, how about we put all these players in one era - use your imagination, who do you think would win?!? Who would dominate?!?
No contest. You said it yourself “It’s become unfashionable, bad form and even blasphemous these days to suggest otherwise.” to argue otherwise.
LRob Said,
September 17, 2009 @ 12:08 pm
Kareem was the greatest of all-time.
He was the best college player the moment he stepped foot on UCLA campus. Freshmen couldn’t play Varsity sports back then, but his frosh team regularly defeated UCLA’s championship varsity team. (Even Russell couldn’t didn’t do that).
He was the best NBA player the moment he got in the league. (Personally I’ve always believed that Russell retired in 69 so he wouldn’t have to face Kareem the next year.) He led the expansion Bucks to the Championship in his second season. (Hello MJ)
But here’s the biggest reason why I give the nod to Kareem….He went head to head with the most Hall of Famers and constantly outplayed and even dominated them. Wilt, Thurmond, Bellamy, Big E, Reed, Cowens, Lucas, Lanier, Walton, Unseld, Issel, Moses, Parrish, McHale, Olajuwon and Ewing. That’s 16 Hall of Famers…and Kareem outplayed them all consistently head to head except Moses Malone for a few years. How many HOF’s did Russell and MJ go against head to head?
LRob
Joe Scribe Said,
September 17, 2009 @ 6:03 pm
I love that knuckleheads are on here saying Bill Russell was a one-dimension player.
Jordan is only the consensus GOAT because he dominated the 1990s, which was the worst era in basketball history. Think of it. Who was the second best player of the 1990s? Karl Malone, who peed his pants in the clutch in his only finals’ appearances? Clyde Drexler, who folded in his only Finals appearances?
Please! Russell played against Wilt, West, Baylor, ect.
Milton Said,
September 17, 2009 @ 9:28 pm
Kareem is the GOAT hands down.
high school
college
pros
he changed the game like no one before or after him.
AL Said,
September 19, 2009 @ 7:29 pm
Not even close! The Celtics won 11 championships,not Russell! He had a great supportive cast in his time! The game was very different when Russell played! No free agency,not many changes on his team therefore better chemistry! Imagine Michael Jordan coming to a team in his rookie year that was good not terrible like the one he inherited? Maybe 11 or more championships! In my opinion Russell was not even the best center ever! Blocking guys that could not jump above the rim,can not compare! I say,Wilt,Kareem,Shaq and even Hakeem where better! Put them all with that Boston team and the result: 11 championships!
Utah Jazz Blog Said,
September 21, 2009 @ 12:30 am
When I read the headline of this article, I thought it was referencing Bryon Russell.
I never watched Bill Russell play, so I don’t exactly have an informed opinion. But it’s tough to imagine anyone greater than MJ (as much as I hate him for denying my Jazz 2 titles).