The dwindling international star
In his first five years on the job as the man in charge of basketball operations for the Boston Celtics, Danny Ainge made so many trips to Europe he could have arranged for dual citizenship in any number of countries.
This year, he didn’t go at all.
It’s not that the Celtics didn’t scout international players; Ainge is a big fan of the Knicks’ draftee, Danilo Gallinari, having seen him in the flesh many times as well as on tape. But in Ainge’s opinion, the just-concluded NBA draft wasn’t exactly overflowing with jaw-dropping international talent.
“I think it’s deep not with star-type players, but with a lot of role players,’’ he said. “And I think a lot of them will make the league.”
And a lot of them will probably stay exactly where they are.
It may be simplistic to suggest that the bloom is off the international rose, but a number of happenings, including the just-concluded NBA Finals, have managed to at least put a hold on the NBA’s fascination with all things international. Or, we should add, with the NBA teams’ fascination. David Stern can still tell you how many daily hits nba.com gets from the most remote stretches of Slovenia.
The NBA and basketball observers everywhere have been consumed by the international game for awhile, but things really got serious after Argentina took apart the United States at the 2002 World Championships. Since then, US teams of NBA stars have been beaten in major international competitions by Spain, Yugoslavia, Puerto Rico, Lithuania, Argentina (again) and Greece.
But with few exceptions (Manu Ginobili, Pau Gasol pre-2008 Finals) those teams did not possess NBA “star-type” players (to quote Ainge) and won mainly because of their teamwork. They were the epitome of the tired but true cliché: the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts. They knew each other and played like it. Lithuania did have an unquestioned European star in Sarunas Jasikevicius, but he bombed big-time when tried to make the jump across the pond.
Greece didn’t even have an NBA player on its team, unless you count Vassilis Spanoulis, who sat on the Houston bench for a year, was traded to San Antonio, and then went back to Europe. He may be one of the few players in NBA history to buy his way out of his contract. Usually, it’s the team that does that.
Gallinari was the sixth pick in the draft and the only international player in the top 19. (Somewhere, Dick Vitale and Lou Dobbs are smiling.) Among the other first-rounders taken, virtually all of them had a biographical attachment saying “expected to remain in Europe for more seasoning.”
If Gallinari becomes one of those “star-type” players, he will be the first international All-Star out of the NBA draft in six years. That was the year that Yao Ming went No. 1 overall and he has proven to be well worth the time, money and energy the Rockets expended to get him to the United States.
By that time, players like Dirk Nowitzki (9th overall in 1998) and Gasol (3rd overall in 2001) had proven to be “star-type” players; Gasol was the Rookie of the Year in 2002 and Nowitzki won the league’s MVP in 2007. Ginobili would prove to be a key part of the 2003 NBA champion Spurs a year later.
But a more revealing pick in 2002 came just four spots after Yao. With players like Caron Butler and Amare Stoudemire on the board, the Denver Nuggets selected Nikoloz Tskitishvili. He was reputed to be the next Gasol. Oh well.
Then came the classic goof made by the otherwise astute Joe Dumars, who took Darko Milicic in 2003 over the likes of Chris Bosh, Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade. Yes, the Pistons won the NBA title that year without much from young Darko, but you get the feeling they might have won another (or two) had Dumars taken any of the other three fellows that fateful June night?
You also get the feeling the Orlando Magic might be further along had they not completely blown the 2005 draft by using a lottery pick on Fran Vazquez, who has yet to play a single NBA minute and quite possibly never will?
Out of all the Europeans drafted since 2003 – and almost 30 of them were first rounders from 2003-2007 – there have been only a few who have had any discernable impact in the league. And that includes the No. 1 overall pick in 2006, Italian Andrea Bargnani. The best thing the Raptors can say about him now is that with the addition of Jermaine O’Neal, Bargnani can go back to the bench. He may eventually become worthy of his draft selection, but, to date, he hasn’t. And the Bucks had one year to look at Yi Jianlian, the No. 6 pick in 2007, and traded him. Eventually, he, too, might become a star.
What do we make of all this? First, the NBA may have exhausted the immediate talent overseas and needs to wait for another cycle. Second, it’s no longer a stigma for some of these players to not play in the NBA. Jasikevicius is happy where he is. Vazquez, presumably, is as well, along with Spanoulis, who was so homesick in Houston even with his mother living with him. Tiago Splitter is likely to remain in Spain where he can be paid more than what the Spurs can offer him. And in Euros.
But here’s another possibility, which we saw first-hand in the NBA Finals. Most of these international players don’t play defense. (Andrei Kirilenko being the notable exception). That doesn’t necessarily constitute news, or a dirty little secret, but it was painfully obvious to anyone who paid more than casual attention to the NBA Finals.
One of the enduring snapshots from that series was when Ray Allen, who had played the entire game, blew by a bewildered Sasha Vujacic for an uncontested layup in the final minute to seal the remarkable come-from-behind win for the Celtics. Vujacic could be seen holding his hands up as if to say, ‘what happened?’ Similarly, Vladimir Radmanovic was a total cipher and couldn’t stay near Paul Pierce while Gasol appeared overwhelmed most of the series, a performance that undoubtedly drew a lot of chuckles in Memphis.
In the balloting for the 2008 Defensive Player of the Year award, Kirilenko was the only international player to get a vote. He got one. When the coaches picked their 2008 All-Defensive team, 36 players got votes. Three – Kirilenko, Ginobili and Andres Nocioni – got votes and none was close to making either of the two teams.
Defense was behind the success of the Spurs over the years. (And no, Tony Parker can’t guard his shadow, but he has been drilled relentlessly by Gregg Popovich into how to play a team concept.) This year’s Celtics’ team, which had no international players, won with its defense. But how many Kevin Garnetts are out there, even in the United States?
NBA executives will still spend and scout extensively overseas for, as we’ve seen in ever NBA draft, it’s a good futures pool. They’re not going to suddenly turn into hoop xenophobes and, as noted, the jury is still out on players like Bargnani and Yi.
But how many more teams need to win a title, like this year’s Celtics, before teams start talking about defense the way they do about offense? No one is talking about Gallinari’s defense - and his new coach in New York isn’t exactly known for it either. And to top it off, the poor kid got booed when he was announced to the New York fans attending the 2008 NBA draft at Madison Square Garden.
What else could he expect from the team that drafted Frederic Weis?
Jorel Jenious Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 10:50 am
Excellent article.
Very on point.
The foreign guys, most work much more on team defense, so as a unit, they are a solid unit of zone defenders. They don’t excel at all in the man to man match ups.
If teams utilized a more zone oriented approach, the internationals (as well as a ton of Americans) would look better defensively. But can you win in the NBA playing zone every night, doesn’t seem like. Too many shooters, too much length attacking the basket.
Foreign guys are solid, teams just should stop picking guys the aren’t dominate at their age level. If a guy that drops 9 points off the bench for the Chinese dragons kills American players at the nike hoops summit, he should get a look. Not a top 10 look. But a look.
Top 15 should be based on production. When guys produce in a different “style” game, it won’t translate. Mostly they are role players just like the bulk of American players are role players.
Mickey Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 12:11 pm
what are you talking about. How about Kwame Brown, Shelden Williams, Eddy Curry,Darius Miles,Marvin Williams,Adam Morrison,Marcus Fizer, Emeka Okafor,Jeff Green, Johnatahn Bender. Where are this guys? This is just an example of players that been picked in the first five picks since 2000. It’s not fair to dog on intrernational players.They are going to be part of NBA for a long time to come.
Bojan Subotic Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
That’s just a stupid article…
A basketball player is a basketball player. Guys like Bargnani can’t play, not because he is Euro, but because he does not get PT…same goes with Darko. You ruin the confidence of a young big man, and he will never be the same. Guys like Bosh, and Melo got all the PT in the world, that is why they developed. If you are thrown into a potential playoff team (or title team in Detroit’s case) and don’t ever see the floor, you will not improve your game. If this lasts 2-3 years, you might never reach even close to your potential.
As far as you stating how Detroit passed on Melo and Bosh…maybe you can give Bosh some credit (if he guards a small 4 like an Al Harrington, but have you seen him get pushed around by Mikki Moore in the Nets series), but Melo? Yea, his defence is stellar…
What exactly is your point? D wins titles? Melo is really good? JR Smith could score the same amount as Melo, and you don’t call for him being drafted over a guy like Darko…
euroballer Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
It’s not that these euro players can’t play defense. It’s that they can’t compete in the NBA’s one-on-one, space the floor, no zone defense, and lax traveling style of play. These players excel in the Olympics and related events because they are playing under FIBA rules and because they have mastered the team defensive concepts of basketball. Did anyone notice that Kobe Bryant had a hell of a time getting into the paint in the Finals? It’s because Boston had 4 guys in the paint waiting for him to beat his man. It’s the same thing in the Olympics.
JC Navarro and his teammates know that he won’t be able to stay in front of any of the US guards, but looking for them to keep everyone out of the lane with help defense and force the USA to shoot from the outside and beat them there. They have resulted to team defense out of necessity. There are very few legitimate NBA shotblockers EVER coming out of Europe. Nobody can just erase the mistakes up at the rim. They have to get their bodies in the lane beforehand.
Does anyone ever notice that the NBA has tweaked the game in favor of athletes and FIBA has tweaked their game to make it easier to play defense? The international court is shorter/smaller, the three point line closer (though I read that it will be expanded), zone defense is legal, and a player can not take a long first step going to his strong side without putting the ball on the floor first. Both organizations have their reasons for adopting the rules that they have. In the case of David Stern and the NBA, it is to promote more offense and allow his more athletic players to make more athletic plays at the rim. In the case of FIBA almost every rule is implemented to give European teams a better chance of succeeding against the US. There is a reason that the majority of european stars come to the NBA and struggle, but no one ever mentions the difference in rules as a contributing problem. Likewise, when Americans come to Europe for the first time there is an adjustment period (especially with traveling) for nearly every player. Just my two cents, but IMO it is an overlooked part of the problem.
Xavier Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
It has become very fashionable lately to talk about the “homegrown” toughness and defense of the Celtics, as if this one championship series somehow proves something. It does prove something: if a GM finds a way to assemble 3 all-stars with a nice set of role players around them, you’re probably going to have a pretty good team. It has nothing to do with where players are born. Boston has one title. The Spurs have won 3 with their international cast.
A few years ago, the conventional wisdom in the draft was “you’ve got to go with size… you can’t teach size…” So Milwaukee picked Bogut, New Orleans picked Paul, Utah got Deron…. and now the prevailing wisdom is you gotta land a great point guard to lead you to the promised land… but, then again, this year’s finals featured Rondo and Fisher, not Paul, not Kidd, not Nash… The next time a team wins a title featuring a player not born in the USA, this trendy euro-bashing will look as silly as articles from the 20s claiming blacks would never be as good as whites in baseball…
EFIX Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
What else could he expect from the team that drafted Frederic Weis?
lol! really funny! even if i think that you are bit tough with fred weis!
In fact, he never pay with them so it’s impossible to value what he would bring!
And as far a i’m concerned, i don’t remember a “good player” drafted by the Knicks,european or not !
I’m still convince that Gallinari will bring more than John Wallace and ike Sweetney did
Phu Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
This has nothing to do with where the player is from. Basketball is basketball. It is not conclusive that American born players are more defensive. I can sit here and easily name hundreds of American born players who don’t even know the concept of defense; and some of them are now HOFs. Like one of the above comments, it has a lot to do with the scouting. Teams are not doing their homework. Look at what they did with HS picks. Don’t blame anyone because you decided to go with Kwame Brown, Jonathan Bender, and such. Blame urself for being bad evaluators.
Now that the NBA requires kids to have a year of experience after HS before applying for the Draft. They probably should have the same requirement for international players per se. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.
kegrey Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
You totally forgot players when you speak about defense.
Diaw (Phoenix), Pietrus (Golden State), Gelabale (Seattle), Diawara (Denver). (yes I’m french)
The real problem is that US coachs don’t make international players play like they know.
Marco Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
I have to say that I am sorry, but I do not agree.
Its true that in the past few years, Europe has not dished off some astonishing talents to the NBA, however, the only players who have made the leap, are young unexperienced players.
The biggest stars, like Matteo Soragna, Basile (of Italy), and Rudy Fernandez (Spain) have decided to play out their carreers in Europe. Undoubtedly they would become All-stars in the NBA.
Just remember the famous night where Italy thrashed team USA. 90% of those players remain in Europe after having beaten the NBA stars of today (Iverson, Duncan, Marion, James) to a pulp
Bobby Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
I do agree with the article.
As for Bojan’s statement about the development of players such as Darko, many Europeans don’t seem to care about defense.
Darko in particular, seems content with the ring he won with Detroit and probably realizes that last years Grizzlies team was not going anywhere.
He may be more rejuvenated now with Mayo and a healthy Conley Jr.
I also couldn’t help but notice that Semih Erden, the last pick in this years draft, needed to work on motivating himself. Sometimes, it appears as if some of the Europeans are more lax (perhaps to their slower-paced not as frantic lifestyles). American players seem to be more into games because for many if not all of them, it’s been a dream of theirs to play in the N.B.A.
Shinchan Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Altough it seems to me that the article is very well-written, i can’t agree in a full way with its author.
In my opinion, the problem is not the place where the player has born, but some other aspects like physical consitution, style of play he had learned in Europe…….
I can think about a lot of american players, white and blacks, and they aren’t remarkably defenders.
The problem is that a few years ago, only the best players in Europe (Petrovic, Kukoc, Volkov, Sabonis, Scrempft…..) arrived in the NBA. And all of them, except Sabonis, needed a year or two to understand how you play in America, to train the body and gain some pounds to it…..And now, during the last five or six years, it was somthing like a “boom” and if a player was able to promediate 10 or 12 points in Europe he is selected in the draft. And it seems, especially the top picks, like Gasol, Bargnani, Milicic…that they are owe to make an impact in the league since his rookie year.
So we have also to look to some General Managers and ask them what things took them to pick people like Fran VAzquez, Milicic, Sergio Rodriguez….
So, today, it is easier to pick a player who is not going to perform at a high level in the NBA if we take into account the numbers of foreigners thah land in the league each year.
id Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 5:03 pm
“pre 2008 finals” Pau Gasol?!
So I guess when Kobe chucks up 20 foot fadeaways means Pau Gasol is to blame?
The fact that you morons get to write about basketball on popular websites when you continually display evidence that you DONT watch the games makes me sick.
Shame on you fools. This article belongs on Realgm.
Also, if NBA teams could send pieces of crap like Anthony Randolph and Javale McGee to Europe to “get seasoning” I’m sure they would. Problem is, these frauds would rather get their rookie scale deals to drive drunk, smoke pot, and flash their loaded guns “in da clubz”…
You suck Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Boston wins one series after Kevin McHale gave them Garnett and now they have all the answers. Pau Gasol has one bad series and now he stinks. I remember LeBron having some terrible games against Boston in their series, but I guess that is different. Euros play no D? Since Kwame Brown can’t shoot a lick does that mean American’s don’t have any O? Geez, you people make me sick worshipping the great Celtics. Where was the praise last year when then they were tanking it trying to get the No. 1 draft choice? I hope they gave McHale a championshihp ring.
Simas Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 6:09 pm
I agree with Bojan, and even more with Xavier. For some reason, since Europeans don’t play defence, the USA national team struggles scoring against Lithuania, Greece, Argentina, which isn’t in Europe, but most guys play there, and also Spain and even Puerto Rico. Obviously there is defence, and there is team defence. Really, this article is idiotic, because basketball is basketball, in Europe it’s a team game, in America it’s a show. People have different views and like different styles. That’s fine. But what was the point of this article? That Europeans can’t win NBA championships? Or that Americans are looking for another reason to brag that you guys are good, but you haven’t won anything since 2000, and barely getting past Lithuania, and the world hopes USA still will keep losing.
marcel Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 7:10 pm
Can you please tell me how many of the “good defenders” you mention, are white? none
Can you please tell me how many of the international players you mention are black? none
can you please tell me how many “good defendders” are white and american? none
genetics may have something to do with this don’t you think? not only being from a country or another…
(with all respects for everyone’s colour of skin!!!!!!)
nathan Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 7:37 pm
I agree that the NBA did jump on the bandwagon. I’m a Raptors fan and they’re the perfect example. Colangelo went with a squad made up of mostly Euro-ballers and it was a success at first. They made the extra pass and hit open shots playing the unselfish style that defeated those NBA all-star teams in international competition. But what happened to that team in the playoffs? The Nets and the Magic knocked the Raps out of the first round by playing tougher and taking away the easy shot. Then what do you have? No points in the paint, no interior defense and no second round. This year he got rid of almost everyone except Bargnani and Parker who played overseas and got Jermaine O’Neal. It’s not that those players aren’t valuable, you just can’t have a team made up of them in today’s NBA where the Spurs and the Celtics make it to the finals. Defense will always beat offense in any sport. I think instead of bringing over all these international players GM’s should be looking at their coaches… just don’t ask them to teach defense. P.S. the Knicks suck.
fran vasquez Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
[...] along had they not completely blown the 2005 draft by using a lottery pick on fran Vazquez, …http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/may/2008/06/28/the-dwindling-international-star/Hoping For ???Magic??? in the Draft So the draft is this Thursday?? I hate to say it, but I??m not [...]
George J Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
This is one of the silliest least profound articles I have ever read. I also wish people would stop talking about “defense wins championships”. No it doesn’t. Maybe in football because you can score off of your defense. Not in any other sport. Good offense will always beat good defense. Let me write it again for the wanna be writers: “Good offense will always beat good defense”. Defense can make the deference as in we have good offense and we can defend when needed and when we a play team that can’t defend we win. That is true. If you have the best offense and the worst defense and go against the best defense and an OK offense you will lose. But if the best offense goes against the best defense the offense will always win. Always. So, stop destroying the game by preaching that BS about defense. When the Spurs beat the Suns they outscored them in their own game. So, did Dallas and New Orleans this year. Of course some defense will win against no defense at all.
Individual defense is a bunch of BS if you don’t have a shot blocker behind you. When you defend the perimeter, you can either take away the drive or the shot. which practically means you either stay close to the guy so he can’t shoot or give him some space so he can’t get by you. I don’t care who you are, you will never be able to take away both. Most players would give the J because arguably it is harder than a lay up. Te only notable exception for individual defense is the ability to get through screens quickly (whether over or under) and to bother the shooter i.e. what Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest do so well. That is it. you could potentially compensate for lack of shot blocking by quick rotating on drives, but eventually that would tire your team and you will get beat in the fourth. Low post defense is usually about size and ability to stand your ground. And even then if you go against Shaq or Hakeem or Wilt or any of the great centers you will be embarassed just like the Admiral was, arguably one of the best most athletic defenders in the league ete.
So, stop that defense BS please!
To the particulars. Of the foreign born players, AK-47 is a top defender. Sasha Vujachic is one of the best perimeter defenders on the Lakers, which is why the Zen Master likes him so much. Did he get beat by Ray Allen on that drive? Yes, he did. Again, good offense will always beat good defense. And Ray Allen is no chump change.
Yao is one of the top shot blockers in the league and plays solid defense. When Vlade played center for the Kings several years ago they had the top opponent field goal percentage defense in the legue. Never mind that Vlade could not jump more than an inch.
Even Darko can turn into a top defender as he is already one of the top shot blockers in the league…. it’s becoming a long post, so I’ll stop here.
Dan Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 8:07 pm
Bojan Subotic, you say Darko and Bargnani haven’t or won’t develop because they don’t get enough playing time? What about one of Darko’s teammates in Detroit, Tayshaun Prince? Prince sat on the bench his entire rookie year, only to be called upon in the playoffs. He came up huge in the playoffs the year they won the title. How did he develop under the same circumstances that you say have kept Darko from developing?
winkstrap Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 8:41 pm
you talk about bad defense by vujacic and radmanovic on allen and pierce but uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm where the hell was kobe o thats right guarding no one as usual (all he does is guard who b.bowen, r.bell, now r.rondo and posey and he still couldnt get the job done) yes i know he guarded 4 different celtics at times but was burnt more often than not by any one of them
(most over-rated defender in the nba period!)
you are right on the lack of defense that is present in the nba especially amongst the internationals so why do most teams seem to ignore it
Perfect example (the mavs need to trade j.howard and fillers for s.marion or at least get ron artest or they will be nowhere once again) of a team that should be right up there, all it takes is 1 great defender to help the rest of the team
Winkstrap Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 8:53 pm
you talk about bad defense by vujacic and radmanovic on allen and pierce but uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm where the hell was kobe o thats right guarding no one as usual (all he does is guard who b.bowen, r.bell, now r.rondo and posey and he still couldnt get the job done (yes i know he guarded 4 different celtics at times but was burnt more often than not by any one of them
(most over-rated defender in the nba period!)
you are right on the lack of defense that is present in the nba especially amongst the internationals
... Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 11:05 pm
Would be cool if you mentioned Steve Nash
chris Said,
June 28, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
parker, ginobili, nowitzki, gasol, ming is a pretty good all-star team. nba has been an ‘all-star’ league (regular season) for 20 years, and cherry-picked some of the best in the world (see above) over the last 10 years. being able to stop a team of tall, fast, talented players who all play ‘me-first’ (usa olympic teams of late) is not that hard if you are tall enough and play excellent unselfish team d. it will be fun to see if the nba game evolves over the next 10 years, or if they keep drafting players with ‘huge upside’, but no passing/defensive/team skills.
Kevin Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 12:04 am
It’s not that those young big men lost their confidence by not getting the chance to play. Darko, Bargnani and Skita didn’t have guaranteed playing time handed to them on a silver platter and they couldn’t earn playing time because they weren’t good enough. Teams invested a lot of effort and money into those players. The chance was there and they couldn’t take it. It’s because they were overwhelmed, they weren’t ready and they probably never will be! Bosh and Melo came into the league and played like stars right off the bat. You’ve got to earn it and they couldn’t. The idea of an international star is pretty much dead right now. It was a nice little fad starting around 2000 and it made Europeans feel like part of something but it’s over now unless something dramatic changes.
Of course a lot of these guys want to go back home. It’s easier over there! There are a lot of American guys who probably wish they could go back to college after coming out earlier and riding the bench or not getting drafted at all!
This year it’s just more obvious because of what happened in the Finals. The Spurs have been the exception, in more ways than one. Plus, they’re led by one of the greatest American players of all time - Tim Duncan. They had a few foreigners in the supporting cast (how many All-Star games have Parker and Ginobili made?) and people wanted to act like the rest of the world was just churning out stars.
Rashidi Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Actually, John Wallace is a great comparison for Gallinari. Except he played bigger than 210 pounds and wasn’t taken 6th overall.
Frenchmen Boris Diaw, Mickael Pietrus, Mickael Gelabale, and Johan Petro all play defense. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence or not, but they are all black.
Tony Parker doesn’t have great defensive tools but you can’t argue that there’s a toughness about him that other Europeans lack. He probably drove into the lane more times than the rest of the European ballers in the league combined.
Seems to me France is a bit tougher than places like Serbia where it feels like everyone is a no-defense shooter.
Rashidi Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 1:43 am
And yeah, as a Knick fan I saw this coming and had shades of 1999 when the Knicks passed up home grown product Ron Artest for a 7 foot stiff nobody had ever heard of. Yes the Knicks had Houston and Spree and didn’t need a SF as much as they (supposedly) needed a center but did anyone really think Weis was going to solve anything? (Ewing + Camby = need a center???)
D’Antoni better hope he can get a lot out of Gallinari because he’ll be the one who looks bad for it because of his connection. The Knicks do need a shooter, but it’s not like Gallinari is a great one, he is more or less skinny Q-Rich.
Or in European terms, Walter Herrmann with better handle and less toughness.
Sputnik Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 2:03 am
This blog is ANTI International players….this is BS men, non-sense. US team which is loaded with NBA stars can’t win an Olympic Gold since the year 2000 and I really hope they will drown in Beijing. The gap between the Euroleague and the NBA is very little unlike during the time of “His Airness”. The Raptors we’re beaten by Benetton at home, the Sixers featuring AI & C-Webb were bashed by FC Barcelona. Dont call basketball is only about defense it’s how you play it successfully.
Bojan you are right men, International players just needs PT so that they can prove themselves. Well the americans are recruiting overseas then don’t give them PT and their got damm media will bash the young players and get their confidence very low.
You have coach like larry brown who’s very rude to international players except to the dunkin dutchman rik smits. I hope in the future the Euroleague will be bigger than the NBA. Right now I am enjoying watching the Euroleague than the NBA because it’s more fun to watch. Just like I am enjoying the system of Coach Mike D’Antoni.
Go Euroleague, Viva Euroleague, BS NBA
Andre Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 2:14 am
One of the earlier comments about genaralizing ball players from Europe being ridiculous makes an important point about labeling people so easily…we should take each player as they are as individuals and not look for an excuse to lump them together with others of their “kind”. However, I’ve been waiting for someone one to finally realize that the euro player fascination has not yielded the results people like to claim. This is the case for various reasons but there’s still this popular sentiment that drafting euro players is in some way progressive and that opinion needs to finally be dismissed. Again, the number of euro players who don’t play defense might have more to do with the type of players GMS are looking for than an overall inability. They love the outside shooting big man which in general will get you a “soft” player…carlos delfino is a good defensive player as well and by the way and saying tony parker cant guard his shadow is a bit overstated
urgo Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 3:07 am
mutombo can’t play defense , olajuwon couldn’t play a lick of D .
yeah , international players can’t play D .
Chuck Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 3:08 am
I can’t think of any truly sturdy 4 types from Europe…maybe Dino Radja…the Drobber…Sabonis….but it’s been a while.
Most of the Euros now are lanky, floor running, perimeter shooting, finesse players. They don’t body up, and they don’t respond when you get physical with them. In the NBA, you can’t be intimidated.
Stojakovic…perhaps, if he remains healthy, perhaps one of the top 5 all-time int’l scorers when he retires, chokes in big games. Same with Nowitzki.
I am not pleased with this overemphasis on int’l talent and possible Euro expansion. The game needs focusing on here in the US. We don’t need to give everything we have away. More outsourcing :bitterlol
Dantoni will utilize Danillo to maximize his usefulness…the Knicks still need to sort out their personnel for another season and off-season. They have no kinda team….the players are all still mismatched. They have too many jackers…and only one rebounder…And they have no PG to settle it down. Knicks might win 30, might…
v Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 3:47 am
what a stupid article! this writer just sounds like a hater, doesn’t even know basketball if he thinks where you are from determines how good you are at basketball. Sounds like a typical american believing that they are the best in the world at everything and that foreigners are not on the same level. By the way Gallinari got boo’ed because NY fans haven’t seen much of him, but they boo everyone. P.S. stop hating, check the international scene since 1998 on world champs etc. and then start talking about if where your from determines your ability to play basketball? maybe we should have an article on the lack of shooters in the states or the inability to make a free throw? peace hater, 1
v Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 3:52 am
what a hating article. Start respecting the international players, they improve the league dramatically, and this is shown in international competitions since 1998. this article sounds just like another american who thinks americans are the best at everything. maybe criticise lebrons defence, because radmanovic didnt let pierce drop 41 on him, also dont hate on gallinari when you dont recognise talent. scoring 15pts a game on the euroleague level at age 19 makes you a player ANYWHERE you play, and solidifies a lottery selection. he would have dropped 20+ in college ball if he played and the reason they boo’ed him was because NY fans havent seen him before, watch ESPN and you might have known that. Stop hating! peace 1
I HATE THE USA Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 4:21 am
what about all the horrible american players who have been busts in the NBA and half of the NBA who cant play defence to save their lives?
how typical of Americans to write such a artical..
Get over yourselves.
Win a major World tournament then try and talk trash about internationals..
Buc Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:09 am
Darko has never played more than 23 minutes per game in a season. Now somehow in that short time, he’s proven to be an excellent shot blocker, if not one of the best in the league. All these people love to scream bust, when the kid is a year younger than LeBron and has never been given a fair shake.
And then the Detroit thing… when are people going to realize Larry Brown HATES rookies? There would be no difference between a Darko or Chris Bosh or a Dwyane Wade, they all would have sat on the bench until it broke. Why must people subject themselves to the idea of any 2003 star being allowed to ruin the team chemistry Detroit had? No one that attempts 18-20 shots a game would be allowed to take away from what Chauncey, Rip, Rasheed and Tayshaun collectively provided as starters. It’s almost unfathomable for any of these guys to have been benched in favor of whoever they drafted instead of Darko.
adolfo Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:18 am
the main problem is that years ago only the best players in Europe landed in the NBA (Petrovic, Kukoc, Volkov, Sabonis…), and all of them, perhaps except Sabonis, needed a year or two to learn the play in the league, to prepare their body in order to compete with the athleticism guys around, get accostumed to the schedule…….
But since five or six years ago, when the scouts check that a player is able t o average 10-12 points in Europe, he is chosen in the draft, and a lot of foreign players has arrived in the league and has not had any impact in it.
perhaps the scouts should understand that not all the players in Europe are Gasol, Nowitzki or Calderon…….
In other days, only the “chosen” were able to play in the Nba. Today anyone can sign a contract with a team, but how many of them achieve a significant role in the league?????
Alfred Queda Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:29 am
There were more international players in the League in 2002 than there were in 1992. There are more in 2008 than there were in 2002. The number is rising at a fast rate, not dwindling at all. This article makes no sense at all.
Was Sam Bowie born in Europe? Kwame Brown? Danny Ferry? Your examples are absurd and biased.
Your article might as well be titled “I’m a stupid redneck born in America and we do everything better than those damn euro-fags, god dang-it”
Caldegod Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 6:47 am
Hope to Ricky Rubio, who has an extremely defense quality.
rino Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 7:20 am
O.k. Euro’s might lack athleticism in 1-1 defensive matchups. I give you that. But look at Melo, he doesn’t give a shit, about the game, about defense, about…So do’nt give me crap about how good sombody would be with Melo in the lineup. Euros do give a shit, and give up livestyle and money to play for american “pesos”. Aside from an adjustment to the American “me first” culture that translates to Basketball in its most nastiest forms (Redd, Melo, Kobe), Euros have to adjust to speed and athleticism in the game. If coaches were prepared to invest PT in euros they would be able to do that, but in general they don’t. So if a team-minded euro checks in the game, his first instinct probably would be to pass the ball (never to see it again), next time he forces up a shot, and gets his ass janked by the coach. That’s it, just give the guys some slack and they will turn out fine. Nowitzki, Gasol, Ginobli, Petrovic, Marculionis (no D?), Smits, Schrempf (no D?) were lucky they worked extremely hard to get good looks and made the most of it.
Lets hope Gallinari goes the road of the aforementioned guys.
osmosis Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 8:55 am
you left out alot of international that have played really well last year. Both Jose Calderon and Hedo Turkoglu played great last year and had all star type years. Also guys like Luis Scola, kleiza, Andres Nocioni have proven to be good players.
Yeah alot of international players turn out to be busts, but so do alot of college stars like adam morrison, shelden williams, mike sweetney. etc. Its unfair to broadly catergorize all international players.
kevin Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 9:39 am
couple things.
1. there is a large learning curve for Euro stars to play in the NBA, just like there is a large curve for Americans to play in FIBA.
2. Euros are great team defenders, because they dont play the individual, 1-on-1 game that the youth of America only knows how to play.
3. They are smarter players because they play the game in the truest form.
4. When the NBA stars play the FIBA game against much more physical teams like Greece, they are brought to submission. It’s all about styles of play in different leagues.
mike smith Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 10:39 am
Yeah, it is a ridiculous article. Never make an assumption, is the point, and yet it contradicts that point. I thought good journalism was built on solid research and knowing about your subject before you write. Get real, the overseas players can play basketball, and yes, they can play defense.
Case in point, the SA Spurs, the number one defensive team in the league for the past several years or more. The only player(s) that do not play D on that team, happen to be from the USA. Finley, Vaughn, Stoudemire, and Demarr Johnson. Thats why most of those players don’t get much playing time.
Players only play up to the expectations of the coach and team concept. The only reason, Manu doesn’t get defensive player awards is because he plays for SA. The team most NBA fans love to hate, as well as owners.
Next time, lets just write articles and stick to those subjects we know about.
graeme cohen Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Do you mean white international players? You didn’t mention T. Parker,B. Diaw,L.Barbosa,A.Varajao, or N.Hilario. Are you saying something about white players veiled behind an international curtain? Just wondering,good article though. Go Warriors, with Biedrins in the middle.
jeremy Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
The Celtics won a title by acquiring 2 borderline HOF’ers to play with their 1 borderline HOF’er. Sure they played great D, but the real reason they won was because of the trades and the veteran ring chasers that littered their bench.
I think it has less to do with where people are from, but more to do with just the Celtics having the better team. The American-born Pistons were battered and bruised by the Celtics to get to the Finals weren’t they?
I think the real issue in the Finals was the inability for Kobe Bryant to ever get in any sort of comfort zone offensively and how Lamar Odom turned into a liability. I know Odom is from South Jamaica, but it’s in Queens, NY.
Or maybe you can talk about how important home-court advantage is in setting a tone for the series?
When it comes down to it, I think what you’re trying to say is you feel that black players are tougher than white players but you are trying to do so in the most polite possible way.
Just come out and say it.
james Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
While I think what most of this article is saying is true, I think it is largely biased. While you can single out the international players picked above future all-stars in the drafts, you leave out the fact that that happens nearly all the time in the NBA draft. I’m sure the Cavaliers would much rather have Andris Biedrins than Luke Jackson right about now, and players like Chris Wilcox, Dajuan Wagner, and Mike Dunleavy were all selected in front of Amare Stoudemire. So sure, NBA executives have made mistakes selecting international players ahead of some future all-stars, but had anyone known those players would be future all-stars the draft would have turned out differently. The bottom line is, you usually can never tell. Selecting anyone in a draft is a gamble.
Also, the notion that international players don’t play defense is a myth. Like what was said before, international players usually focus on team zone defenses, not individual man-to-man defenses. I played on a team that played against an all-German team and when we faced up against them and they went man-to-man against us, they were tougher. American style ball doesn’t allow for almost any touching while defending, and they had their hands all over us. Us, being Americans, are used to that being called fouls, and they just were far tougher than us. In their set of rules its allowed, so it is defense, then transitioning over to the US their kind of defense is now not allowed, so naturally it would be tough to change your style. I have personally played with teams who have players from Germany, Italy, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Poland, Congo, Czech, and many more places, and they mainly focus on zone defenses, but are all pretty tough in their own rights.
emma Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
While I think what most of this article is saying is true, I think it is largely biased. While you can single out the international players picked above future all-stars in the drafts, you leave out the fact that that happens nearly all the time in the NBA draft. I’m sure the Cavaliers would much rather have Andris Biedrins than Luke Jackson right about now, and players like Chris Wilcox, Dajuan Wagner, and Mike Dunleavy were all selected in front of Amare Stoudemire. So sure, NBA executives have made mistakes selecting international players ahead of some future all-stars, but had anyone known those players would be future all-stars the draft would have turned out differently. The bottom line is, you usually can never tell. Selecting anyone in a draft is a gamble.
Also, the notion that international players don’t play defense is a myth. Like what was said before, international players usually focus on team zone defenses, not individual man-to-man defenses. I played on a team that played against an all-German team and when we faced up against them and they went man-to-man against us, they were tougher. American style ball doesn’t allow for almost any touching while defending, and they had their hands all over us. Us, being Americans, are used to that being called fouls, and they just were far tougher than us. In their set of rules its allowed, so it is defense, then transitioning over to the US their kind of defense is now not allowed, so naturally it would be tough to change your style. I have personally played with teams who have players from Germany, Italy, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Poland, Congo, Czech, and many more places, and they mainly focus on zone defenses, but are all pretty tough in their own rights.
Razvan Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 1:11 pm
Let’s not forget that part of the reason there are less foreign players drafted is that fewer and fewer of them are willing to leave Europe and come playin the NBA. With the exchange rate being 1 euro = 1.6 dollars, people are making much more money to play (and star!) in europe than to be 6th man on the Memphis Grizzlies’ sorry bench. It’s sad, but the NBA is no longer the top attraction that it once was…
vincent Herring Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
Gallinari is going to be Keith Van Horn light, not even! He is going to be the NEW Darko!
How could the Knicks pass on Joe Alexander? Joe Alexander is going to be GREAT!! He will be great next year not in 4-5 years.
Gallinari is going to be a BUST. He is to FU^%ing slow and weak. Knicks broke my heart yet again. Just like when they passed on Ron Artest for Fredric Weiss
Lewis Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
The point that you’re missing here is the financial aspect. International players don’t necessarily WANT to come over. The US dollar is worthless next to the power of the Euro. Couple that with the fact that many of these guys are already making 2-5 million euros a season (that’s nearly 8 in US). Why would they come over to accept a rookie contract that in some cases is 700K? Especially when they might ride the pine for the season. Ask Carlos Delfino why the Euros aren’t rushing over. He could take another 2 or 3 million dollar deal here - say, with the Raps again - or take the 24 million Euro deal that he’s been offered (in Spain, I think).
NBA scouts aren’t rushing to Europe because they don’t want to waste their time, not because there isn’t the talent. If this financial discrepancy holds up, soon it’ll be Americans rushing for the continent.
Jazz fan Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Thank god Xavier has some sense. Last I checked, the Spurs have been pretty good, Gasol turned the Lakers into a contender, and Dirk won MVP last season and nearly won a title three years ago.
Jazz fan Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
Thank god Xavier has some sense. Last I checked, the Spurs have been pretty good, Gasol turned the Lakers into a contender, and Dirk won MVP last season and nearly won a title three years ago!
Jazz fan Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
I actually heard a radio host yesterday question why the Mavericks drafted Nowitzki, because he was soft and would never win them a championship. And to think they passed on Michael Doleac, Bryce Drew, Michael Dickerson, Keon Clark, Matt Harpring, Patt Garrity, Bonzi Wells, Roshown McCloud, Ricky Davis, need I run down the rest of the ‘98 Draft?
Francois Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
Oh BS, you Americans don’t know how tough Europeans can be. American ghetto youth wouldn’t even survive a summer in a Parisian slum.
Chris Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
Very glad to see others are bagging out this ridiculous article.
Vujacic can’t play D??? hahah classic comment coming from a guy who no doubt watched the highlights that night. Vujacic is a monster on D…constantly draped all over his man without giving up the foul. Yeah on one big play Ray managed to get by him and make him look like a chump. Did you see the 10 seconds leading up to that when he had Ray in his pocket. As you may have seen on a highlight real over the years Ray Allen tends to jack up the occasional 3, so Sasha was no doubt waiting for that and got punished.
And the comment about Detroit would have won 2 or 3 more titles if they had taken Carmelo. My guess would be detroit would have won none. Detroit won that series against LAL because Prince was an absolute monster and shut Kobe down. Carmelo would have been no doubt bitching about playing time and stealing some of Prince’s and i guarantee LAL win that series very very easily. Then it is doubtful the LAL team gets blown up after winning the title and goes on to claim 1 or 2 more.
And speaking of the difference between US and Euro players, we saw how dominate and headstrong the yanks are didn’t we? wasn’t Lamar outstanding - on both ends no less.
Keep being a sheep and going with the reactive popular opinion of the moment, you are looking great.
And for the record i’m not from Europe and i backed Detroit in 04 and Boston this year so i was cheering on both like crazy….
jamal mustafa Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 8:48 pm
euro’s can’t play D. they play against inferior competition in europe. euro scrubs pick #20-30…
Paul Said,
June 29, 2008 @ 11:35 pm
Scoreboard: Celtics 17 - Spurs 3
Rickson Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:09 am
Ummm…..can’t make too much of one year’s draft. Also, your argument is horrible. Sasha Vujacic, e.g., is considered to be a very good defender. You mention that Kirilenko, Ginobli, and Nocioni are solid as well which is enough to take down your argument. Darko is also a very good shot-blocker….the only thing he excels at actually. Let’s see…..Vlade used to flop a lot which is annoying but he was effective. Nesterovic is a quality shot-blocker. Turiaf is tough as anyone ask Ronny Price. Okur is tough enough. Petro sucks…but is a good shot-blocker. We could go on.
Al J Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 1:00 am
I remember when the Celtic teams of the 80s won titles, there were annoying kids in my school who said the reason Boston won was they had more white players and whites are smarter than blacks… and NOW the reason twenty years later is that people born in America are tougher than those born in Europe, South America, and Asia… uhm, have you heard of the Spurs? They’ve won 3 titles. What’s your next article going to be, the opinion that Africans are no good at building igloos because of their jungle DNA?
Joey Deegeling Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 1:09 am
“Then came the classic goof made by the otherwise astute Joe Dumars, who took Darko Milicic in 2003 over the likes of Chris Bosh, Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade. Yes, the Pistons won the NBA title that year without much from young Darko, but you get the feeling they might have won another (or two) had Dumars taken any of the other three fellows that fateful June night?:
—Carmelo is more likely to have had a detrimental influence on the team chemistery. Plus his offense is compensated by horrible defense. Wade is a great talent but he needs the ball too much to actually help the Pistons who thrived on moving the ball or keeping in Chauncey’s hands. Milicic if anything provided someone for the team to root for as a benchguy working hard for playing time (in that year at least). Chemistry is a fragile thing and adding more talent doesn’t always make you better.
“You also get the feeling the Orlando Magic might be further along had they not completely blown the 2005 draft by using a lottery pick on Fran Vazquez, who has yet to play a single NBA minute and quite possibly never will?”
— Yea, drafting Julius Hodge would surely have helped them more, or maybe Joey Graham or Rashad McCants… there’s only one relevant player drafted after Vasquez was, that’s Danny Granger. So you can hardly say they completely blew this one.
In fact we will compare it to the player they got one year later with the SAME first round 11th pick draftpick. J.J.Redick! Now there’s a good solid American tough NBA superstar….
Point is teams draft guys on potential all the time, only the American ones who fail are not noticed.
I Darko worse then Marvin Williams? What about Jay Williams? All are 2nd overall picks.
Sure you can say Bargnani has underproduced but what has Adam Morrison done picked 2 spots later? At least Bargnani has the potential to be a star and is not on his way out of the league.
basketball in turkey Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 1:35 am
I’m an American who lives in Turkey and having been keeping up with international basketball. I think that there is some truth to the fact that Europeans tend to be weaker with man-to-man defense. However, I think that has more to do with the European style of basketball that emphasizes teamwork, especially on the defensive end. This means that European players may be less-prepared for the individualized NBA game. However, bringing players with a European style tends to give teams good role players with versatility and a range.
I think this article erred in that he equated European with International. Other parts of the world are producing international players. These places have a different style of basketball that often does emphasize defense. For example Andrei Kirelenko, Dikembe Mutumbo, Luis Scola, and Frabricio Oberto are not push-overs. They are international players, but not from Europe. I think the future of the NBA will be made up of more internationals from places other than Europe.
We should also note that seemingly good players are bound to flop. This has happened long before the NBA became so international. There are no silver bullets. Sometimes you get Dirk. Sometimes you get Darko. Sometimes you get Mike Sweetney. Sometimes you get David West. The NBA is a hard place to play and a player’s success has to do with much more than the origin of their passport.
miguelorl Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 3:02 am
Wrong article!!! you talk about defense? i guess that´s the reason why you lost since 2002 in international games: the defense! USA players can´t play as a team and they don´t play defense.
In Europe we know obout tactics, offense and deffense, and that’s why you lost with greece (funny funny game by the way, lebron james, melo and wade showed their smart level playing this sport. We could talk obout “that men you call coack k” amazing control of the game jajajajajaja, that day every one was looking each other and saying “what the hell is he doing? Oh sorry!,you were studing international basketball, yes yes…)
Today, only kobe (unless he plays like in the finals) has that star level, the rest only run with a ball in their hands, they don’t play basketball. That’s another reason of yor losts in the last years, your players don’t youse their brains playing, and that’s very important today.
Less dunks and more inteligence!!!! We have that in europe, you only jump
Jake B Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 3:17 am
How many college players have been billed as the next big thing and fallen flat on their face? It’s ignorant to say that just Euro’s are failing after much hype. Let’s face it…this is the NBA. It’s not just international players who are a dime a dozen; it’s everyone! This is an interesting article, but there’s too much focus on where the player was born and not on the situation.
Also, I’d just like to say I never believe the hype of these international players. Not because I don’t think they’re good…because they all are. But they’re usually overrated because they aren’t shoved in our faces since they’re fourteen like American players. They get all this attention within a matter of months and are built up to be something they’re not. Then when they have decent careers, they’re busts. Lame.
Pietro Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 4:19 am
Never seen an article with so many stereotypes in it….
Zone defense is used in europe only against US teams because they’re not ready to adapt and they lack shooters. I guess you never saw a match in Euroleague. These are the comments that make people laugh when USA is beaten in international competition. Oh…. they defended so well the pick and roll against greece that the video of that match is shown during basketball clinics…..
francisco Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 4:29 am
top 10 pick last 10 years - luke jackson, keyon dooling, sweetney, rodney white, diop, griffin, mihm, dermarr johnson, dajuan wagner, marcus fizer, stromile swift, jay williams, olowokandi.
aren’t many of the european players better than them. even the ones who are drafted and then remain in europe.
pincho de merluza Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 5:48 am
Wait for next draft, Ricky Rubio is comming, you’ll see an international player defending point guards as never seen before.
Benoit Benjamin Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 7:06 am
And the US born players paly such a tough defense that they’re on top of the international basket ball world. Oh wait.. i agree with you, but I think you take way too many shortcuts. It’s not so much that euros can’t play defense (I may be the only one who thinks that, but kirilenko is the best perimeter defender, with Bowen, who learned his game in europe too), it’s just that the NBA game is much different from the FIBA game and the euros can’t adjust. I don’t see that many americans thrive in Europe either, especially defensively.
Jhon Doe Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 9:19 am
i think this is a very opportunistic article.
If L.A. would have won the title, would you have written the same?1st of all,Gasol’s deffensice performance wasn’t outstanding during the whole 6 final games, but in some of them did a pretty good job (have a look on both, PG and KG statistics). To represent this by the R.Allen’s lay up over SV it’s a nonsense(and opportunistic)…SV is in LA because is a smooth (and very young) shooter, not a defender (I totaly agree Radmanovic has no defense attitude).
Jorel. Defense:euro guys work much more on defense team, ok…but in MAN TO MAN TEAM DEAFENSE…please have a look to a euroteam match and you will realise zone defense it is used as a resort….never as a sistematic defense…but they use a huge variaty of man to man sistem defenses,and mix defenses when a good shooter is on the field.
Last, but not least…it is easy to write an article like this by chosing the players you choose…because you have so may players to choose…that is the main problem. Now more and more Euro/Intl palers are drafted, so it is imposible all of them to be stars…but how many stars arise beetwen the USA drafted players?. You have mentioned Bargagni, Yi, Milicic..and you are right..but I say Kwame Brown(1), Dajuan Wagner (6),Jay Williams (2),Sheldem Williams(5),Mike conley(4),Jeef Green (5),Martell Webster(6),Marvin W.(2),Stromile swfit (2),Darius Miles(3),Marcus Fizer (4)..all great players…deffensively too.
Why don’t you choose..defensively talking, people like Oberto, Nocioni, Ilgauskas (not good defense but good rebounder),Kleiza, Biedrins, Krstic, Calderon, Garbajosa, Deng, Pietrus… yes…almost all role players, but, how many real stars there are in every draft??and even good players? Which is the ratio euro-usa players in every draft??
By the way, Denver drafted Nickoloz T. with pick 5, and Amare was pick 9…3 teams more passed, chosing USA players(worst)…opportunistic again
Cesar O. Rodriguez Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 9:46 am
Hello Basketball fans ot the world:
My name is Cesar rodriguez, a basketball fan from Spain. Gasol has given the Lakers the same “team spirit” that made Spanish National Team world champions in FIBA W.C. Japan 2006. The U.S. team finished third in that championship, playing with overpaid all-stars like James, Anthony, Wade, Bosh, Howard, etc. it was very fun for us watching Greek team winning the arrogance NBA players, just making something: playing as a team. We feel shame when, the day before the game, the U.S. players couldn´t pronounce any greek players and Coach-K didn´t know anything of his opponent: PATHETIC.
Since 2000, any U.S. Team has won any important basketball tournament, basically playing against european teams. Yes, Argentina, won gold medal in Athens 2004, but you must consider that most argentinians (Ginobili, Nocioni, Oberto, Scola, Delfino, Herrmann, etc) grew up in European basketall. The main difference right now against european basketball and U.S. basketball is that we believe in a game perfomed by a team, not 5 individuals. You only have to watch european players in NBA: they never shout, they don´t play individually, they think mainly in winning as a team. That´s part of our culture, meanwhile U.S. players play individually. Image of U.S. team in FIBA World Champs was pathetic, many alley-hoops, the best dunking but every all–star playing for himself. We call that with the same word Coach-K told some days ago: ARROGANCE.
Please watch other spanish players in NBA: Calderon (TOR), Navarro (MEM), Garbajosa (TOR), Rodriguez (POR), or players “built in Europe”: Scola (HOU), Ginobili (SAS), Oberto (SAS), Nocioni (CHI), Stojakovic (NOH), Krstic (NJN), Bargnani (TOR), Nesterovic (TOR), etc, etc. They don´t make spectacular dunks but help their teams to win. Even in NBA vs Europe teams fiendship games the “crash” between different basketball cultures has given us more victories than yours. We agree NBA is the best champinship of the world, but we think you have a lot to learn about our “team spirit”. It seems that Kobe Bryant is changing his play for Gasol´s influence. Now he realices he can not be champion shooting 50 shots per game or playing alone. Maybe it´s a surprise for you, but not for us.
Meanwhile you don´t change your individual culture (talking about basketball), please be prepared for another loss in Beijing 2008.
Excuse me if my english is not perfect, hope you understand me.
Best regards form Spain
Cesar Rodriguez, a basketball fan from Spain
Mark C Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 10:22 am
Boston has alot of sorry american defenders and a few really good ones. They had a solid team defense, which according the the writer is a european style defense.
The only thing we learned was that if James Posey and Eddie House are hitting 3’s and Derek Fischer, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, Vlad Radmonovic(you see where I’m going with the entire laker roster) don’t. Celtics win.
Michael J Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:21 pm
Gasol looked good playing in the defenseless west, but when he was beaten by Perkins with one arm, and Garnet with one hand, you have to wonder if the Lakers wish they could spend his salary on a free agent
bron42 Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:34 pm
Darko didn’t get PT? Maybe thats because on the pistons he was getting destroyed in practice, let alone games. And even when he got PT he was garbage. The guy is 7′0 and broke his hand MISSING a dunk. And hes had plenty of chances on other teams who gave him teh benefit of the doubt and he still sucked so lets not cry about how he just has’t been given a shot. He could of been a full time starter in orlando which is why they gave up a first round pick that eventually became stucky to get him. But Darko just couldnt handle it there and still can’t handle it in memphis. International players know this and expect it which is why Yi refused to workout against college players before the draft and was instead showing tapes of post moves against chairs and a 5′9 shooting coach. If anything Euro players get way more credit than they deserve. Your not gonna see many american players drafted averaging 5 points a game yet Alexi Alijca got drafted by the bobcats. Jason Kapono himself said it best “If I was born overseas and had the same stats I did in college, I’d be the #1 pick” European teams have sent over their best players over and they’ve been role players AT best 90% of trhe time. Bargani was a start until he proved he was just another tall shooter and played no defense. Luis scola starts and he went from international superstar to solid role players. The lakers were supposedly relying on Gasols TONS of international experience to cover his lack of playoff experience and he still played like ass. Even the spurs, who won 3 titles in their prime won them not because of international team, but because of time duncan and putting good role players around him. This was the first year that you could say manu was the star of the team and they ended up losing. Besides you can’t even really call the spurs a international team when only two of their players are considered international and it ALL revolves around Duncan. Both yao and dirk have turned into allstars who choke with pressure on. Walter herrman, Carlos delfino, Carlos Arroyo, Marco Uric, Darko, Sarunis, Yi etc…have all been given their shoot and didn’t do ANYTHING as pros and thats not even bringin up the tons of guys who enter teh draft and then just don’t come over therefore wasting high pics on a guy who you never see or until hes past his prime. Am I saying American players are a sure fire ALLStar, no, but the majority of the time their more proven which is why guys like will bynum and anthony parker don’t get drafted but go and average 20 a game in europe. Hell even casey Jacobson became legit over seas.
space Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
this HAD to be written just to get people to respond.
admittedly, i’m the dude who drafts a senior before a hit-or-miss euro baller but damn– Lol. korver over skita… hhhmmm… each player has his/her own strengths & weaknesses. how about stop living in labels. this is the same crap that gets people like david west from almost NOT getting drafted for being undersized.
honestly the nba does a HORRIBLE job of using people to their strengths or even allowing them that opportunity. switching their positions, putting them in bad situations, running backwards systems, then pointing the finger when they don’t succeed. not to give every euro player a free pass. of course some do just suck at a few things but hey. we knew gasol had skills before he left memphis, but in less than week in lala land they looked like legitimate title contenders. don’t all of a sudden at the end of a marvelous western conference championship run start saying gasol can’t play D and they didn’t win without defense. c’mon.
they CRUISED through the conference finals.
pietrus has WAY more talent then they allow him to show, but once he gets to america he is converted to a 6th man defender, occasional scorer. WOW. he jumps through the gym, passes well, strong body, defense and can score. but coach isn’t his best fan and he sits behind another guy and a potential star never gets an opportunity to shine. sure he will play well some where else. but those 1st years are what usually determines if you will be that star. ask kwame or a bunch of other coulda-beens-but never got that true shot.
vujacic is a feisty poodle-type defender. he barks, yips, hustles and uses his hands and tries to stay in your face but a bigger guy who gives him a good move can put body on him and go to the hole. he got blasted on that one play, but how many times have you seen or heard about him doing that this season? he’s not great at defense, but he’s not terrible. ray is a 10 year vet. he knows how to draw a foul. vujacic knows that. if there weren’t the miscommunication on defense we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
it’s kinda pathetic. nba scouts and gm’s blew it several years in a row. but can you blame them? they didn’t accurately consider that some of the players who smoked the best of the nba …not really– how many TRUE nba stars opted out of the medal games for various reasons. [—that deserves serious mention] our best hasn’t actually competed until almost last year. the dream team were the allstars of the allstars [sans olajuwon]. but it seemed like there was a changing tide. so they all jumped on that wave. then the dreaded hype machine reared its ugly head. you know that good-ol hype machine. the one that tells us randy white, tzskita, and kendrick brown are the chosen ones. the hype machine again. and it works double against the euro ballers.
David Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
Paul, if you are going to be brief, then please be accurate.
Celtics 17 - Spurs 4
P Lewis James Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
To George J it is clear that you know very little about basketball, and team defense in basketball. It was no accident that the Celtics won the championship. They did it with great defensive rebounding (key word DEFENSIVE), and great team defense. It is very simple stop the other team, score, you win! When the Celtics overcame a twenty plus point lead to steal game four how did they accomplish this with smoke and mirrors? No! With DEFENSE. It is pretty simple really, basketball 101.
dunkem Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
As someone else said, Euro players play great TEAM defense. Ask the U.S. why we’ve struggled in international play. Team defense and team offense for Euro teams. When you mix more team oriented players with more individual defenders and scorers, you play out of synch, Euro players “can’t play defense”, and, in general, teams lose.
This brings me to Toronto…. Toronto’s key problem is Mitchell and Ford not its euro-players. Notice how with Calderon at the point, the TEAM plays better than the individual driver, TJ Ford. Mitchell abandons his pick and roll, euro offense with his non-euro driving point guard.
Like the Spartans in the movie 300, if you have one weak link in the defense, the whole defense is shot. Same goes with euro teams and players.
Saying euro players lack defense is something this writer may have to eat come the Olympics. Imagine the Suns with excellent team defense….. that’s what the U.S. team lost to in the past and will be challenged to defeat this year.
YouAreAFagLittleGay Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Didn’t Dumars draft Rodney White and Matteen Cleaves too? It’s not like Darko was his only high draft pick blunder. Of course, in Joe’s defense, the 2000 draft may have been the weakest in NBA history, and Okur was the Piston’s 2nd round selection in 2001. Pity they let him go.
B. Carroll Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
Here are the problem with the system of bringing Europeans to the states to play in the NBA:
1.) We typically bring them over before they have an opportunity to assume the role of a go to guy on their club teams. European teams, unlike NBA teams, typically play their best players, regardless of age, the most minutes. Player development happens in practice and if it doesn’t translate to games European coaches don’t have the same patience that NBA owners and general managers have with their first round picks. Their is no draft in Europe so there is less incentive for a coach to feel compelled to play younger players who aren’t ready. If an NBA team drafts a European in the first round they are expected to play like veterans the moment they come over and are berated by local fans and media if they aren’t producing. These youngsters are rarely under that type of a microscope in their home countries.
2.) The European game is more physical than the NBA game. Referees allow much more hand and body contact under FIBA rules than they ever do in the NBA. Flopping is not rewarded with free throws at all on the offensive end. Players from Europe, in particular guards, are more prone to commit fouls when they pick up their defensive intensity. In turn, to avoid foul trouble, they give their opponents more space to either create off of the dribble or shoot jump shots and often they don’t have the foot speed to keep up with some of the more explosive penetrators or shooters.
Also the lane is much wider in FIBA ball than it is in the NBA. This gives a post defender a much better opportunity to keep his opponent from getting a high percentage shot in the post. Plus with all forms of zones allowable, it also puts less strain on a post defender to be in position for help defense in Europe. Defensive 3 seconds really hurts international post defenders.
3.) There is far less off the ball movement in the NBA. Typically in the NBA a team either plays through their best player in the post or plays pick and roll with their best guard and most mobile big man. Most of the time a young European player is physically imposing enough to get a ton of post touches in the early stages of his career nor talented enough off of the dribble to create scoring opportunities for himself and others off of the dribble within a pick and roll set. Most often they are waiting off the ball for the ball to get reverse to them in hopes that they have a high percentage shot. Considering that in Europe ball movement is much more a focus in practice it can be consistently frustrating to be on the court for a large portion of the time and not even have the ball reversed to you on offense.
4.) Lifestyle. Doesn’t matter where in the world you are the American culture can be found somewhere in it. But for those young international players who have difficult times adjusting to the NBA it can be equally difficult for them to adjust to the culture of the United States. Most Americans expect to be able to find people in foreign countries to communicate with them in English - however it is very rare that an international player can find the same comfort of their home country in America early on in their pro careers. Combine with the fact that they are expected to understand sophisticated NBA strategy without even necessarily mastering the language yet it could lead to a rough transition.
We’ve lost in the past three FIBA Championships (World Basketball 2002, 2006, and Olympics 2004) because of the difficulty it is for us to adjust to the style of play of international basketball. It is not that these European players aren’t talented enough to excel in the NBA — it’s more that they aren’t coming over here prepared to play a much different style of basketball than they are accustomed to playing in Europe.
Once international players become more comfortable and understand how to best maximize their talents you will see them represent themselves better in the NBA.
Remember Detlef Schrempf and Linas Kleiza were international players who were able to adjust to the NBA rather quickly. Why, because they were able to adjust their strengths and weaknesses to the style of play in the league. These two weren’t even considered top notch prospects. How do you think that Darko, Skita, Nene, Bargnani, or even Yi would have faired learning their craft in American high schools and colleges before turning pro. Probably would have had much more confidence and the public would have more patience with their development as well.
Luo Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 8:22 pm
wow, Euros don’t play D, LMAo ( i’m not euros) but Eddie Curry really doesn’t play D, how come his name is not mentioned, Euros has way better understanding team defense ( Cs won by team defense, only K.G and Posey are great one-on-one defender) how in the world sam cassell stole the ball, team defense, Lebron and Melo has worst D ever (besides Eddie Curry), the problem is coaching, most US coach doesn’t know or too lazy to teach CORRECT ZONE defense, anyway, Bargagni is not bad, let Bosh play center, he’s just as weak as Bargagani anyway. BTW, jose calderon is actually better than Mr. Big Shot or Aging Jason Kidd, I bet if we bring in a Euro coach and have all the foreign born player put together, they will own, LeBron, Melo, D-wade, the only 2 player will stand-out is D12 and Kobe
Dilly Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 8:47 pm
OK so i have read a lot of the comments about International/european players not succeding in the NBA because of different things.
I have only one thing to say and that is this.
NBA is a league for Crazy athletes. I mean its more or less a higflying league that goes really fast. Those European players that have made it in the NBA have adjusted to the style of play that a certain “Michael Jordan” brought to the game.
A style of game that even alot of American players couldnt adjust to sometimes and ended up playing elsewhere.
Point beeing look at how the style of game has changed since MJ left the BULLS.
MY OPINION ONLY.
Kevin Said,
June 30, 2008 @ 10:15 pm
Vujacic is a bum. He usually shows good hustle on defense but his feet just aren’t quick. I never heard of him as a defensive specialist until he did a good job in the semi’s on Ginobili who was playing through a bad ankle.
Up until then I always looked at him as just another one of these Eastern European shooters who can’t really shoot in game situations. Every time I see him he’s just rushing to get shots up onto the rim. He’s not like Peja or Ray Allen, or Redd. Those guys have a consistent form and good footwork on their shot, when they miss it still usually looks good coming out of their hands.
But I see people on here arguing semantics, or trying to distract from the point or make a technicality for why the article is wrong. The point is: The DWINDLING INTERNATIONAL STAR. Where are the international stars lately? The US keeps producing star players. We can see that. But where are these international stars the last few years?
As Dirk and Ginobili get older, Gasol has a shaky playoff resume, Peja is fading into the background on his team. Tony Parker looks solid but he’s a 2nd or 3rd option. Who else is there? Where are these international stars that you guys are defending? Don’t talk about Marcus Fizer, at least he PRODUCED in the NBA before he hurt his knee. Don’t talk about getting playing time early, David West is a 20ppg/9rpg player and he didn’t get big minutes early in his career.
Now you have Gallinari, he needs to gain 40lbs before he can even get on the floor. This is the 6th pick of the NBA draft? He’s coming to America to get a fat paycheck to sit and watch an awful team for 2 or 3 years.
Better Than You Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 2:17 am
>Now you have Gallinari, he needs to gain 40lbs before he can even get on >the floor. This is the 6th pick of the NBA draft? He’s coming to America >to get a fat paycheck to sit and watch an awful team for 2 or 3 years.
First this article is pathetic. Some players make it - some don’t - no matter their background. For every Jordon or Wade or Nowitzki there is a several dozen Dajuan Wagner’s, Curtis Borchardt’s or Nikoloz Tskitishvili’s. Darko might never make it as a star, but he still has more worth than Kwame Brown will ever have.
The mistake some teams make is taking young Europeans who haven’t played a lot for their teams. Darko was one - his stat line and playing time was very, very limited before he was drafted. And if you haven’t produced at home, your NBA chances are limited.
Now onto Gallinari and there is a big difference. He has played and has played a lot. On a solid Euroleague team he was the number one option and he plays tough. If he does put on some additional muscle - and it looks like he will over time - that will be great, but he wont be sitting on the bench. Certainly not for the Knicks. His biggest issue will be avoiding punching some of the morons on the current roster who they are probably going to be stuck with because no one else wants them (basically everyone on the team except David Lee and Malik Rose).
Dirk Nowitzki was a BIG time scorer in Europe before he was drafted. Put up some BIG numbers. Same with a lot of the International players who have had success in the NBA. Success at home before success in the NBA is a good formula. Gallinari will be a success because he has already shown he can be a success.
Looking at this list of international players in this draft and you can put money on Nathan Jawai being a player - he scored big time in the Australian league. He may be the second best international on the list after Gallinari. If you want an old school Euro pick then you can question the Alex Ajinka pick - the kid needs at least a couple of years before he is ready - if he ever is ready (but so does Anthony Randolph). If he can’t get on court in Europe, he can’t get on court in the NBA either.
Off topic comments.
I have $20 that says Robin Lopez ends up being a better pro than Brook Lopez
NBA needs to change the rules around 1st round draft picks ALWAYS coming in at the rookie scale when they first come over. Especially when it doesn’t apply to 2nd round picks. Perhaps make it after 3 years teams keep your rights, but the contract is under the same terms as if they had signed a rookie contract three years previous. It is sad that guys like Splitter can’t play in the NBA and probably never will. It also warps the draft process as you can be much better off in the second round or even out of the draft than if you were selected late in the first round.
Skorpio Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 3:23 am
I’m sorry but i’m not agree with that. There are some international players with same or more defense that american players. for example Melo,Iverson and Denver they don’t know what is that. Calderon good defender, Kirilenko, Stojackovic,…
You will say what you want to say and i’m not saying that he is a good defender but Gasol made a good defense over Garnett in the finals but Garnett is very hard to stop.
Gasol made a sharky playoff resume because defense over Garnett and teammates didn’t looked for him enough playing selfish many times.
Ol Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 5:09 am
I actually thought last season, that the international players were getting more and more important. With Manu winning Best 6th Man and Turkoglu winning MIP. Luis Scola was the main reason the Rockets made it to the playoffs without Yao (in his rookie season). Okur had a better series against the Lakers than Boozer. Calderon had such a great year that Toronto now even traded Ford. And most of these players were second rounders. I personally expect Rudy Fernandez to be the international rookie with the most impact next season.
ieatshit Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 9:07 am
if you’re gonna draft a good foreign player might as well draft the rest of his european team mates so they can continue what they are doing over there
C Fatz Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 11:52 am
The waters have been over-fished in the foreign market and will need to be replenished by that healer of all…time.
Just as the 2007 NBA draft was a rich one because highschoolers had to stay in during 2006 draft thus replenishing the American market, the European draft pool will be replenished by about 2011.
CF
:0)
azaz Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 11:55 am
1) the celtics didn’t play great defense but ILLEGAL defense , collapsing always in the paint to force only jumpers:this is allowed in Icehockey but NOT in the NBA.They had to win , they made them to win
2)Bargnani is a SF but he plays CENTER with toronto to allow Bosh to do his own business.He never played center in europe and ha can’t do it in the NBA.
Put him in his role before talking BS about him.
Hinrich , a great defender according USA press, was beated everytime in 1vs1 by DiBella and Bulleri vs team Italy.
Gasol: when he played vs duncan he was fouled several times without a whistle , and as he tried to push TD in the post was a FOUL everytime.
Ryan Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
That Ray Allen layup aside, Sasha Vujacic CAN PLAY DEFENSE. In fact, his teammates (including Kobe) have been quoted saying they rely on his “pesky” perimeter D.
damelo Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Well, let’s speak defense and America then…
Mexico passed them 100+ points? Which NT would ever alloxw them to score that much? Argentina with a secondary squad kept the US under 90… I mean, USA have all the talent you can wish, especially offensive, then…
Tell me, how many points Ray Allen score in career? Who can defend on him very efficiently? Bruce Bowen on his own, maybe, but defense is collective, much mor than offense. You only see one on one defense, Kirilenko is known for help defense, not one on one. And I don’t think Vujacic during such game as Finals didn’t try to defend.
tell me How many SF’s in the world can stay with Pierce.
Man, you’re trashing for trashing, when I watch basic NBA games, I don’t see no defense. Yes, defense wins title, and Spain in 2006 allowed Greece, just out of a 101 points game, only 47 in Final. Who defended better? USA or Spain?
space Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
SOME of the LAWS of the NBA
1. every GM screws up royally at some point. highschool, euro, senior or can’t miss vet. you can’t pick the best guy everytime.
2. some players don’t make it
space Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
like everybody else is saying: SOME PLAYERS MAKE & SOME DON’T. its just the facts. the euro player in america is still a work in progress. don’t smack it in the face like there should be a euro star in every city. gallinari did not make it in the top 10 without a damn good reason. same stands for bargnani. and the same for adam morrison.
space Said,
July 1, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
SOME PLAYERS MAKE & SOME DON’T. its just the facts. the euro player in america is still a work in progress. don’t smack it in the face like there should be a euro star in every city. gallinari did not make it in the top 10 without a damn good reason. same stands for bargnani. and the same for adam morrison.
Richey66 Said,
July 2, 2008 @ 6:29 am
Fact No.1 - European superstars mostly won’t make it in NBA with some excpetions
Fact No.2 - Several NBA dropouts have huge careers in Europe (Anthony Parker, Trajan Langdon, not talking about Dominique Wilkins, who went to Europe being 34 and the same season gave Panathinaikos everything they’ve ever dreamed of)
Yelito Said,
July 2, 2008 @ 11:20 am
Americans plays terrific defense, that’s why in 2004 The Puerto Rican Team beat the crap out of them with no NBA star ( Arroyo is a bench warmer)for the largest margin ever ( 19 pts ) in a sanctioned competition. Carlos Arroyo did wat ever he wanted and even a 40 years old center as Jose Ortiz was effective. Truth is American players, specially black kids learned the game in the ‘hoods and never learn the fundamentals or teamwork required. Been great athletes carries you so far, but the international game is a team effort.
nunya Said,
July 2, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Such bullshit….Paul Pierce and Ray Allen couldn’t defend either until Thibodeau got everyone defending as a TEAM. Bosh is a shit defender…not much better than Bargnani, but he was allowed to develop for years..Bargnani has been jerked in and out of lineups, forced to play out of position..all while being totally unfamiliar with the culture and language.
If you put Bosh in Italy for his formative years, forced him to play Centre (and speak Italian) and jerked him out of the lineup at his first mistake, I know he wouldn’t be much to look at now.
Euros, especially the rookies, especially the big men who are very young, need at least a couple of years of solid playing time before you make any judgements…
ignorant and baseless hate? - Knicks City Forums Said,
July 2, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
[...] and baseless hate? HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Peter May ? The dwindling international star In his first five years on the job as the man in charge of basketball operations for the Boston [...]
A J Said,
July 3, 2008 @ 12:08 am
“… Gasol appeared overwhelmed most of the series, a performance that undoubtedly drew a lot of chuckles in Memphis.”
What the hell do people in Memphis have to chuckle about? Watching Gasol and Posey– two of their former players– in the championship series?
That is a franchise that has given up and is giving away players.
Daniel Said,
July 3, 2008 @ 6:18 am
I’m reading all these comments and wondering if we are all watching the same NBA!!! European players can be just as talented as US players but at the same time American players tend to be more athletic. In this day and age the prototypical NBA player is anywhere from 6-6 to 6-8, about 220 - 235 lbs and is gifted with great athleticism. Although many europeans are very fundamentally sound, to make it in the League you have to be very athletic to flourish. The international stars that do perform well are very athletic(ginobli). the ones that flop usually are just niche players who do one thing really well and are lacking in quite a few areas otherwise.
The US doldrums in international play the past few years was simply because of lack of respect for themselve and their opponents. Each of those players thought that they could beat whoever they faced by themselves which isn’t the case because 1 Great<5 Good.
Miguel Said,
July 3, 2008 @ 10:58 am
i think this article has no credibility simply because the author has used specific incidents to describe “lack of defense” and “star-type” quality, rather than using concrete evidence and statistics. anyone can make generalizations and categorize a type of player as “weak” if you conjure up inconclusive evidence. sasha vujacic’s missed defensive assignment against ray allen in the finals does not epitomize the state of international basketball. vujacic just sucks. how about the rest of the lakers’ defense? odom? luke walton? come on.
Voice of Reason Said,
July 3, 2008 @ 9:52 pm
This article makes perfect sense. All you guys trying to defend these Euros obviously don’t watch basketball. Referencing these past USA basketball teams that were just thrown together is absurd. We’ll see in the Olympics when the USA basketball TEAM dismantles the rest of the world.
Chris grey Said,
July 3, 2008 @ 10:13 pm
I would just like to say they reason why the raptors lost this year in the playoffs was not because of too many internal players. Tj Ford is a cry baby idiot who messed up the whole teams chemistry by claiming he was too much of a superstar to come of the bench. 2nd Sam should have used Kris Humphries to give them the toughness they need. Also Rasho Nesterovic who is from europe played very well in the playoffs as well as Delfino. 2 years ago in the playoffs they lost Jorge Garbajosa(toughest person on the raptors)for the year and Andrea Bargnani apendicemy surgery 4 weeks before the playoffs started. Also if people remember they lost Pape Sow (neak injury) who is not from america for the year to.
I feel the Nba teams are not working with these guys on defending. They hire Free throw shouting coaches and shooting coaches, they should have defensive coaches working with these players one on one as soon as they are drafted. Scooping up former players who were defensive standouts during their playing career to help these guys out.
Steve Nash, Samuel Dalembert, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Fabricio Oberto, Manu Ginobi, Dirk Nowitzki, DeSagana Diop, Dikembe Mutombo, Andrew Bogut, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Andrei Kirilenko, Pau Gasol, Mehmet Okur, Hidayet Turkoglu, Predrag Stojakovic, Raja Bell, Al Horford, Andres Nocioni, Eduardo Najera, and dont forget Patrick Ewing. All these players were not born in the U.S.A. I would love to see any of you guys scoring a layup on Zydrunas Ilgauskas or Dikembe Mutombo. Players that you think are from u.s.a are actually born somewhere else. How many championships have the Spurs won??? And most of there main guys are not American. (I hate the Spurs) lol
xose Said,
July 4, 2008 @ 9:18 pm
Dear Sierra,
what sort of editorial line is followed by this CLAN??
What kind of analitical skills are required to write here (Eddie got them too for sure) about to be born here or there, que vergüenza!! what a fucking and ignorant shame.
Money talks lindo.
xose Said,
July 4, 2008 @ 9:20 pm
I LOVE RUDY GAY AS THE GREATES AMERICAN BASKETBALL EXAMPLE.
IQ, DEF, TEAM WORK, AND HE CAN DUNK!!!!!!
seal team six Said,
July 5, 2008 @ 2:51 am
[...] count Vassilis Spanoulis, who sat on the Houston bench for a year, was traded to San Antonio, …http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/may/2008/06/28/the-dwindling-international-star/United States Navy Special Warfare Development Group - Wikipedia, the …SEAL team six is the U.S. [...]
Tim Said,
July 7, 2008 @ 6:33 am
Its contradictory how the basis of your article is on how international players have the team concept too ingrained on their games, then go on to say that Tony Parker had to learn how to buy into the team concept in order to be successful on the Spurs. I also think its a real stretch to suggest that it’s the international players who struggle with defense and base the argument solely on Sasha Vujacic’s finals performance.
I think that BASKETBALL as a game is healthier than ever and am excited by the possibility that the leagues in Europe are coming around in terms of talent and credibility…. perhaps its more of a compliment to the leagues than it is a negative on the players… Sarunas Jasceivicius didn’t “bomb big time” in the NBA, he didn’t get minutes, so he didn’t have a chance. There are just more good players than there are minutes to go around in a 30-team 45-minute league. Players are choosing Europe because they can play and still get paid a decent wage… see Soccer: Italy, Spain, Germany, England and now the U.S. all have thriving professional leagues, there are simply too many good players. Think about it: living in Rome and playing big minutes or living in a place like Milwaulkee during the winter and playing garbage time? Face it, the allure of the NBA is not as pristine as it used to be, and the leagues in Europe aren’t a backwater anymore. I think its great, Basketball is really coming up as a worldwide sport.
Vorka Said,
July 7, 2008 @ 7:11 am
Get together a team of non-US players with a European coach playing NBA rules and NBA teams will get their a** kicked anytime, anywhere! These guys are too smart to play in NBA, that’s why they are not valued enough by American standards!
trefg Said,
July 7, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
In the only (as far as I know) recent basketball game between an NBA and a european team, which used the NBA rules instead of FIBA’s, the Rockets easily beat the then european champions panathinaikos. I am a panathinaikos supporter and that game was painful to watch. Our players seemed to have a problem with the size of the court or something and couldn’t play any effective team (zone) defense because of it, not to mention that the style of defense they were trying to play was illegal. Offensively they were equally helpless, they sort of tried to park 4 players behind the three point line and seemed too far spaced form each other, basically what I’m saying is, those small details (travelling, the 3 point line, the size of the court) make a huge difference, the european game is tweaked to help the less athletic european players.
Hell the european court is so small it’s like they’re playing in a backyard. And this helps them play some kind of static defense, that I’m not a coach to be able to explain, but the thing is, in the end, because of all this shit, all they do is stand behind the 3 point line and shoot three pointers, passing the ball around as if they’re playing handball.
Primo Said,
July 9, 2008 @ 2:30 am
The physical game that international players are used to playing just isn’t the same when compared to the energized games of the NBA. There are only a unique few European players like Dirk Nowitzki who are able to step up their game and dominate the court. It’s been a little over 5 years since the NBA saw the likes of a top caliber international star. Danny Ainge is right on the money NOT to look globally to fill his roster. Let’s put it this way, NBA has-beens and College reject join the international circuit to proove to the world they can be a star. Sadly, when these players make a name for themselve in that country and get picked up by in the NBA, their level of physical play is not up to par with everyone elses and it all goes down hill for most of them. This is the reason why all we ever see now a days coming from the international pool are jump shooters with decent accuracy. If you want them to score on the drive you can forget it.
dual citizenships with us Said,
August 1, 2008 @ 7:41 am
[...] so many trips to Europe he could have arranged for dual citizenship in any number of countries. …http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/may/2008/06/28/the-dwindling-international-star/Feist on Colbert: Become an iPod artist, get citizenshipFiled under: Analysis / Opinion, Humor, Cult [...]
sean from cayman islands Said,
December 9, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
i agree with 99% of this….Ginobili is a good defender…kirilenko ( though in a funk) is a GREAT defender and NOce in CHItown ain’t bad, especially at one on one.