Odom can still hear Winter
Although the Los Angeles Lakers and Kobe Bryant have gotten off to a strong start this season despite early injuries, forward Lamar Odom says there’s no question they miss triangle guru Tex Winter, who still battles the effects of a stroke suffered last April.
Odom says he has no doubt what the perfectionist coach would be telling the club.
“He would be telling Kobe to move the ball,” Odom said with a laugh recently. “But he was always telling Kobe to move the ball, even when Kobe was moving the ball. He would tell us to ping the ball. He would say we should be passing a lot better, having a lot more assists.”
And if the team had defensive breakdowns, the 87-year-old Winter would blame the troubles on improper offensive execution, Odom said.
That’s because the triangle, a team offense, is predicated on floor balance that always leaves players in position to get back on defense.
Winter, the longtime assistant and mentor to Hall of Fame coach Phil Jackson, is himself nominated once again for the Hall of Fame this year, after failing to gain election on numerous occasions.
It’s a system good enough to win 10 of the last 20 NBA championships, but is it good enough to get Winter elected to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame?
His nomination goes against the Hall’s formula for electing the game’s star coaches and players. Assistant coaches simply aren’t elected to the Hall of Fame, as longtime Celtics player, coach and broadcaster Tommy Heinsohn, himself a Hall of Fame player, explained.
But Winter’s career has broken the mold and merits special consideration, his supporters point out, largely because of the unique triangle offense and Winter’s ability to teach it and coach it.
Former Bulls GM Jerry Krause hired Winter, a veteran college coach who had great success at Kansas State and other places, as the “coach’s coach” in the late 1980s. Krause wanted Winter to teach his unique offense to Bulls head coach Doug Collins.
When Collins declined much of Winter’s advice, he was replaced by Phil Jackson, and the greatest coaching combo of all time was born. Working under Winter’s tutelage and using Winter’s offensive system, Jackson coached the Bulls and later the Lakers to 10 championships in 20 seasons, an unprecedented run.
Pro basketball had long been viewed as an undisciplined domain until it came to be ruled by Winter’s marvelously disciplined approach to team play.
“People don’t realize it’s mostly a zone offense,” Odom explained. “You overload one side, and you always have people in rebounding position. You just kind of pick your spots. It’s a pass-first offense. You just pass the ball to the open man and see what develops from there.”
Winter would be delighted to hear Odom discussing the triangle so authoritatively. Truth be told, Odom has never been all that well suited to Winter’s system.
Winter always said Odom is one of the finest humans he ever coached, and that’s saying something because Winter coached for better than six decades.
Still, as you might expect, Winter’s admiration never left him shy about lighting up Odom if the Lakers forward violated one of the principles of Winter’s system.
Over the past five seasons, Winter was often in Odom’s ear, sometimes fussing about one thing or another, or sometimes just talking about the game. But then the spry pioneer was silenced by a stroke last April.
The Lakers and Kobe Bryant are now moving through another season with hopes of defending the NBA title they won last June, and Odom says he can still feel Winter right there in his ear.
“Experience is the best teacher in the world,” Odom explained recently with more than a bit of tenderness in his voice. “He’d been around the block. And Tex always had stories for me. I miss his presence. We all miss Tex. A lot.”
Odom is a brilliant open-court player, able to operate instinctively on the break like only a select few in the world can do. Yet it says much about Odom that he’s willing to give himself over to system basketball with so little complaint.
Winter has long marveled at Jackson’s ability to sell modern NBA players on the merits of the unusual offense.
Then again, Winter has spent years in Jackson’s ear too. Winter not only provided Jackson the triangle offense and all of its various schematics, but the older mentor gave the younger Jackson the essential sets of drills and fundamentals for playing in his system.
Initially, Jackson provided a vision and an uncanny ability to relate to players and to build them into a team. But over the years, Jackson came to grasp the triangle and to teach it in ways that awed even Winter.
It became apparent that Jackson grew tremendously from their unique relationship and became the kind of coach who has dominated the game.
At every turn, there are regular reminders as to why Odom and today’s younger Lakers players keep plugging away at the different rhythms of the triangle. Odom got one such reminder recently when the Lakers visited Chicago, where Jackson and Winter coached the Bulls to six NBA championships.
Odom said he walked into the United Center and he was immediately left stunned when he glanced up to see the banners that the coaches won with teams led by Michael Jordan.
“I came in here, it was like I forgot,” Odom said. “I see like six championship banners? Then he won three more with the Lakers. I was like, ‘Wow.’ And then I was able to win one more with him last spring? And for me to be here in this presence?”
It’s like walking with history, Odom said.
That’s not to say the versatile forward hasn’t had tremendous frustrations with the system. He laughed heartily when he heard that new teammate Ron Artest talked of the triangle as an impetuous lady who needs constant romance.
“You can call it that,” Odom said. “Romance is good. It’s always better when you take your time.”
The Lakers’ relationship with the triangle has evolved over the course of every season, and this is no different. It’s a constant adventure, Odom admitted with a laugh. “Any given night, you never know. It can be your night to take four shots. Or it can be your night to take 14 shots. That’s how it is. You just have to be prepared.”
That, of course, was part of Winter’s uncanny grand plan to keep the opponent off balance.
NOW IT’S JACKSON’S SHOW TO RUN
In seasons past, Winter has always been the guardian of how the Lakers play the game. Now, Jackson is moving through his first full season without his longtime mentor and assistant. The Lakers coach is also without top assistant Kurt Rambis, now the head coach for the Minnesota Timberwolves.
Odom says Jackson and the team have managed the way they always have.
“We’re always growing,” he explained, “and most people say they don’t change. But I don’t think we can help but change. I think it’s nature, you know?”
For example, the Lakers changed much over the course of the 2009 season, and that helped make them champions.
“P.J., he’s probably more outgoing, speaks a little bit more” now that Winter and Rambis are no longer around, Odom said, adding that Jackson also is now enjoying better health. “I know he feels better with his back and his legs and he’s moving around more. He feels good. He’s upbeat.”
Odom means that literally. Jackson still brings out his “warrior’s drum” and beats it for the team before every home game, a ritual that seems hard to fathom for some opponents in the NBA. The beating drum, according to Jackson’s belief, stirs the heart, just as it did for Native American warriors.
“He gives you that push, that pump that you always need,” Odom said of Jackson. “You want to play for and with the best.”
If it seems like Odom is extremely appreciative of where he is in life, he is. Lakers fans recall that he suffered through substantial off-season anxiety as a free agent before finally re-signing with the Lakers.
Where Jackson used to have psychologist George Mumford lead the team in meditation, Jackson himself now takes the team through these sessions. “Our energy many times is mental,” Odom explained. “The way we meditate with each other and stay poised, it feeds our energy.”
BRYANT/GASOL
If the triangle and Jackson’s methods remain something of a mystery for the team, one thing does not — Bryant’s approach to the game.
“We know what he wants to do,” Odom said with a laugh. “He’s gonna come out and be offensively aggressive at all times. But he earns that. He earns that.”
Lakers center/forward Pau Gasol recently pointed out that he has to keep working the offensive boards because he’s only getting about five shots a game in the offense.
Some observers might take that as criticism of Bryant or teammates, but both Gasol and Odom say that’s not the case at all.
It’s more a testament to Gasol’s effectiveness and the efforts of opposing defenses, Odom explained. “Pau’s always prepared. You see him catch the ball and just go with that pretty left hook. He has an awesome array of moves and shots.
“Teams double Pau a lot,” Odom said. “We try to get him the ball as much as possible. When Kobe gets going, you got to understand that he’s going to stay aggressive, he’s gonna stay in the attack mode. Pau’s so versatile, so underrated as a rebounder. There are so many ways he can hurt a team in so many different. His passing. He hits me down low with passes all the time. He’s always around four or five or six assists a night.”
The situation itself reminds Odom of why Winter, who continues to battle the effects of the stroke at his Oregon residence, remains in his thoughts.
“There are always going to be nights where the defenses are going to take something away,” he explains, echoing Winter.
So it remains the job of the system and the team to produce another option, another way to succeed. That’s the way of the triangle, Odom explained.
Yes, the older coach always had stories for Odom, and it’s clear that Winter didn’t just train players. He also taught them to be guardians of the game in their own right.
In that regard, Odom has placed himself among the elite, because he’s always been the kind of guy to take the things that Winter said to heart.
Perhaps the people involved in the highly secretive Hall of Fame election process will finally do the same.
Leonard Said,
January 4, 2010 @ 11:55 pm
Great article. Thanks. 10 of the last 20 NBA championships for the Triangle had not registered before. It really points to the injustice of Tex Winter’s exclusion so far from the Hall of Fame.
Gils_Keloids Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 1:53 am
Thanks, Roland! You have always been able to express your unique viewpoint.
MihajloMoncilovich Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 2:22 am
Just throwing this out there for discussion.
The Triangle and Princeton offenses are very similar and both require players with high basketball I.Q.s.
But both of Jackson’s Lakers and Bulls also had two of best players in the league at the time of them winning their titles.
Does anyone believe that the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen could not win using the Princeton? Or Kobe and Shaq? Or Kobe and Gasol?
If you believe that it was the Triangle specifically, then is Phil Jackson really the best coach in the history of the NBA? Shouldn’t the title rightfully belong to Tex Winter?
The Rick Adelman’s Kings ran the Princeton with great success and from what has come out from Tim Donaghy’s book, were screwed by the league when they were on the verge of defeating the Lakers in ‘01-’02.
Vlade Divac, Turkgolu, Stojakovic, Webber and Bibby versus Kobe, Shaq, Fox, Fisher, & Horry. It seems the Lakers had the talent advantage so the Princeton must be on par with the Triangle and/or Rick Adelman must be a superior coach to Jackson even without having won any titles.
I mean look at the job he has done in Sacramento, Portland and especially in Houston. Hasn’t Jackson always had the more talented teams? Jackson’s always had the players necessary to run the Triangle. Adelman was flexible enough to realize he didn’t have the players in Houston to run the Princeton so he adapted to a less rigid “read & react” offense.
My point being isn’t too much credit being given to the infamous Triangle and if not, then Phil Jackson seems to be overrated, having Tex Winters as the true basketball mind behind the titles and teams built behind some of the greatest players of all-time in Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, and even Pippen and now arguably Gasol.
I’d like to see what Jackson could have done with a team like Adelman’s Rockets without either Yao or McGrady. What would he have done when they couldn’t execute the Triangle? Quit? Retire? Lose until his G.M. acquired better players?
How far can a talented team go with a bad coach? I think everybody agrees that Mike Dunleavy is a horrible coach but yet he had the ‘90-’91 Lakers of Magic, Worthy, Perkins, Divac, & Scott in the finals against Jackson’s Bulls of Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, & Armstrong.
Was it Dunleavy who cost the Lakers the title and allowed Jackson to win his 1st in only his 2nd season? It seems that the Lakers had the more talented team.
Just things that make you go hmmm…..
George J Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 8:29 am
You know when the NBA published the list of 50 greatest players of all time for its 50th anniversary, Michael Jordon, who arguably headlined the list, said that this list had no credibility and meant nothing to him because it did not include Dominique Wilikins. Or something along those lines.
What did Phil Jackson do when he got elected to he hall of fame? He should’ve plain refused the honor unless they give it to Tex as well, or at least until after they give it to Tex. The selfish prick that he is though, Phil did not do crap.
Mihajlo,
to answer some of your questions. Jackson did have undertalented teams and he did ok (one when Jordan retired and one when he got back to coach the Lakers some three-four years ago). I mean he wasn’t not horrible but nohing spectacular. Nothing in the light of what Adelman is doing with Huston or did in Sacramento, or what Doc did last season with the Celtcics.
The Princeton and the Triangle are pretty similar except the former is run from the high post and the latter from the low post. Hard to compare nonetheless.
Vincent Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 10:04 am
Wow - talking about hating the player.
Mihal - Your point is predicated on the assumption that winning NBA championships only requires a single element of greatness, as opposed to a great many elements of greatness, starting with management to coaching to the players. How much credit should be give to a system, a player, a coach, a GM, varies from year to year, from championship to championship. To try to take anything away from Phil and/or Tex, the architects of 10 different championships with three different teams (two separate Lakers squads) just because your man Adelman has never won a damn thing is petty.
George - I think PJ did a pretty good job when Michael retired for the first time - 50+ wins both years and advancing to the second round of the playoffs on a team that was without the greatest player who ever lived isn’t bad at all.
MC_cHampsta Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 10:24 am
George J,
More often than not, reporters make those lists, not players or coaches. Reporters don’t know anything. Fans are even worse (T-mac in the all-star game this year.)
You’re probably right in a sense that Phil is nothing without Winter, but not everything is about the Triangle. The war drum he beats, the meditation, he has a very different way of coaching and preparing his teams. “Winter has long marveled at Jackson’s ability to sell modern NBA players on the merits of the unusual offense.” That kinda sums up the intangibles that Phil brings to the table. My personal favorite aspect of his coaching is letting his players play through a rough part of the game, such as a 12-4 run, when they are the 4. A decision like that may cost you that certain game, but it allows your players to grow and learn.
‘02 Kings will always be the best team ever formed. Everybody had a passing game, it was the most entertaining basketball to watch. I can believe they got screwed because every game in that series that Sac won, Shaq was in foul trouble. It was always said Shaq was difficult to referee in a game, what a great excuse to lopside a game. And if anyone remembers Simaki Walker’s half court three, that’s why we have replay today.
Roland Lazenby Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 10:54 am
Both the triangle and the Princeton Offense are examples of “system basketball.” There are a few NBA teams that employ a system, a philosophy of how to approach the game, as Tex puts it.
Most NBA teams simply use a collection of play calls along with substantial freelance play. In other words, they employ no system, no core philosophy.
A lot of opposing coaches tend to downplay the effects of system basketball. But San Antonio is mostly system based, along with the Lakers. That makes comparisons pretty easy. System teams win more titles, although non-system coaches are in huge denial about this. They always want to downplay the triangle and its coaches.
Rich Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 10:58 am
You got my vote (if I had one). Hang in there Tex. Hopefully the Lake show will make it 11 out of 21 this year.
The debate rages on. What does it take to win a title, great coaching or great players. I do remember the 1996-1999 Laker teams having more talent than the 2000 Lakers. Kobe, Shaq, Van Excel, Jones (all allstars), couldn’t get it done until PJ (&Winters) arrived.
Porky Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 11:58 am
A little known fact is that Albert Einstein actually invented the basic triangle defense when he was at Princeton. His superior physic skills were employed to chart the strategy.
regal Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
Mihajlo,
The article is about Tex and his triangle offense, yes, but you’ve concentrated a bit too much on the offenses of the Lakers and Kings in your theory.
The main reason those two teams were such a good matchup for eachother is because each team’s offense and roster had been perfectly constructed to exploit the weaknesses of the other squad’s defense.
The Kings couldn’t guard Shaq or Kobe without fouling and/or flopping, which put pressure on the refs to control that series more than they wanted to. To be fair to the Kings, Kobe and Shaq were hard to stop in general and most opposing teams tried to hack and flop their way past the Lakers… not just the Kings.
And the Lakers weakness on defense was it’s pick an roll defense. While Shaq was a huge presence in protecting the basket, Shaquille has never really taken to stepping out of the paint and defending the pick and roll or getting out on above average- shooting bigs. The Kings just had a combo of Webber and Divac that took advantage of Shaq’s laziness on defense…
… the Kings basically always had 1 of their bigs standing alone around the free throw line and that big could do whatever he liked, be it shoot, set a screen and flare or roll, or pass and playmake from the middle of the Laker defense. Any coach will tell you, get the ball into the middle of the opposing team’s defense and you have more options.
So all in all, it was the Kings’ defensive deficiencies and the Lakers’ defensive deficiencies that made for such a close series. And at the end of the day, the Lakers were the aggressors as Kobe and Shaq attacked the Kings’ defenders and the Kings settled for jump shots. I
t’s a fact that refs usually give the benefit of the doubt to the more aggressive team and the Lakers were most certainly that ( which I’m sure Donaghy failed to mention in his book).
And while I slighted Shaq earlier for his defensive deficiencies against the Kings skilled bigs and their pick and roll/pick and pop Princeton offense… I have to point out that Shaq did indeed close down the paint against the Kings with his protection of the rim. So in fairness to the Kings and Shaquille, they settled for jump shots just as most opposing teams tended to do the against Shaq and the Lakers.
MihajloMoncilovich Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 1:25 pm
Roland and George thanks for your input and understanding what I was looking for from my post. Too bad all of the readers here do not possess basic reading comprehension skills.
tim Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 2:07 pm
Well it seems obviously that the better teams run a system, compared to the rest of the NBA that seems to only have the pick and roll in their playbook
MihajloMoncilovich Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 3:09 pm
Regal, nice of you to take the time to respond but I used the Kings and Lakers specifically for a reason.
The main point is if the Triangle actually is such a superior system within the context of all systems? I used the Princeton to compare it with because it is the most popular system used in the NBA and they are both very similar.
So the 1st question is whether or not the Bulls and Lakers could have won using the Princeton?
Secondly since both require great players with high basketball I.Q.s and IF the two systems are fairly equitable, then what would be the 2nd most important variable, players or coach? Well obviously if the systems are equitable and the coaches fairly equitable then the team with the better players should win.
Jackson’s Bulls or Lakers have never won a title without having the superior players. As Vincent pointed out Michael was the greatest player of all time and the Bulls didn’t win a title without him. That is all that matters for this discussion.
We are talking about systems, coaches, and players but yet Vincent wants to infuse new variables such as general managers when trying to determine who is a better coach, Jackson or Adelman or which is a superior system, Triangle or Princeton? Utterly senseless and irrelevant to the discussion.
Now if you are still following along with my train of thought, how is Adelman an inferior coach if the systems are equitable but Jackson has always had the better players?
When Adelman’s Blazers met Jackson’s Bulls, the Bulls had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. The Blazers Clyde Drexler and who? Terry Porter? Bulls had the better players.
Kings and Lakers? The Lakers. That is why I used the Mike Dunleavy Lakers as an example when the losing team actually had the better players but they also had the noticeably weaker coach. IMO, give that ‘90-’91 Laker team to Rick Adelman or a Pat Riley type and Jackson doesn’t win his 1st title.
If Jackson and the Triangle are so superior to everyone and everything else then the Lakers with Kobe and without Shaq should have won a title before having the gift of Gasol bestowed upon them.
I also don’t appreciate the readily dismissal of the behind the scene shenanigans by the league and referees. There has more documented cases besides Tim Donaghy. Tommy Nunez openly had his referees favor the Spurs over the Suns because of owner Robert Sarver’s poor treatment of referees.
The outrageous suspensions of Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw and then allowing Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett to get away with identical rule violations.
Referee Richie Powers REFUSING to enforce the rules and call a technical foul against Paul Silas and the Celtics in the ‘75-’76 finals against Phoenix, allowing the Celtics to win the game.
Memphis G.M. Chris Wallace bestowing the gift of Gasol upon the Lakers to pay off a personal debt to Jerry West who had given him the job in Memphis.
The league rigging the 1st draft lottery in 1985 to give their then struggling Knick franchise the premier player in the draft, Patrick Ewing.
There isn’t any doubt in my mind the Kings were screwed by the league who wanted to see the series extended to 7 games for the revenue.
So my question is still this, what has Phil Jackson done without being given a coach to coach him, Tex Winters, and a team with the leagues best players?
Red Auerbach won 9 titles and he actually coached the Celtics, he didn’t have a Tex winters coaching him. He also didn’t have Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West, two of the best players of their era.
So according to the story, if Tex winters is truly deserving of the HOF, it should be in Jackson’s place. Who has the superior basketball mind? The student who employed his mentor’s system or the teacher who created the system? Simple enough, who cares who the G.M.s were at the time?
Max in Missouri Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Hate the Lakers….hate Kobe….hate ignorant Laker fans….
However, the fact that Tex Winter is not in the HOF is a tragedy! That guy is a basketball genius and doesn’t get the props he deserves.
Joe Guy Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 5:15 pm
GREAT point about Red winning without Chamberlain and West. Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, KC Jones were never any good.
kray28 Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 6:17 pm
All I’ll say is that the Princeton offense is qualitatively very different from the Triangle. They are in no way “similar”.
The hallmark of the Triangle is player spacing….the hallmark of the Princeton is motion…players moving off the ball.
Nice try in the attempt to sound smart….when the real axe to grind was to throw up some non-sequitur about Sacramento getting robbed by the league. I’m sure Stern and the refs made sure they missed all those freethrows in Game 7 at Arco too. Cry me a freaking river.
MihajloMoncilovich Said,
January 5, 2010 @ 9:02 pm
Nice job is sounding ignorant kray28, Princeton and Triangle are very similar.
So the Princeton doesn’t rely on spacing? And you have the balls to imply that I’m not very smart? LMFAO! I said SIMILAR, not IDENTICAL.
jdsanjuan Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 6:23 am
Obviously mihajlo’s teams has never won anything. Hate those winners all you want. Bringing up some points to refute your claims is of no use because obviously you don’t take the things other people say into your mind.
Phil is a ten time champion coach. There are no what ifs, just accept it loser and NO, you don’t seem very bright with your thoughts.
Dj Quest Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
I agree that Tex should be in HOF, but I must disagree with the assertion that Phil isn’t a good coach. Any great leader listens to the people around him and uses that collective knowledge to better the direction of their charges. It’s what CEO’s GM’s, even 1st line managers do (at least the ones who are successful). So yes, Phil used the triangle but let’s not get it twisted, others have access to the same scheme, but if you can’t teach it and more importantly can’t get others to believe in it, nothing happens.
Also, the sentences below really irked me…
“Red Auerbach won 9 titles and he actually coached the Celtics, he didn’t have a Tex winters coaching him. He also didn’t have Wilt Chamberlain or Jerry West, two of the best players of their era”
WTF???
I am assuming this was written while half asleep.. right??
Auerbach coached a no Fewer than 9 NBA HOF’ers during his title streak.
Are you serious? Wilt was the Shaq of his era. But he didn’t win a title until he paired up with other HOFer’s. West was a beast but he was no where near the best guard of his era. That honor would belong to Elgin Baylor and later to Oscar Robinson. Boston consistently put two to three HOF’ers on the floor night in and night out including the only player in the league who could guard Wilt: Russell!!
HOF under Red:
Russell
Cousy
KC Jones
Bill Sharmen
Ed Macauley
Tom Heinsohn
John Havlicek
Sam Jones
Bailey Howell
Again, we are not talking about “All-Star” we are talking HALL OF FAME Players who were the absolute best of the best.
Bottom line you can’t win in the NBA, NHL, MLB or even the NCAA Men’s/Women’s BB Tourney w/o having the best players and having those players buy into the system. Geno Aurema (I know I misspelled his name) asked what the difference between his team and Tennessee when they went undefeated the whole season. ” We have Diana Taruasi.. they don’t”.
Read Red’s bio (it’s reprinted on Wikipedia) and you will see that the Celts were only “decent” until they got two HOF’s on the team at one time and ONLY then did they start to dominate. 50+ years later its the same thing.
Celts - (Current )(KG Ray-Ray, The Truth (Paul Pierce)
Celts- (80’s) Bird, McHale, Parrish
Lakes- Kobe, Shaq or Kobe, Pau (if he gets another ring)
SA- Duncan/ Robison then Duncan, Ginobli, Parker
Mia- Wade/Shaq
Bulls- Jordan, Pippen
Cleveland- Shaq, Lebron (lol)
Phil coaches what he is given and makes it work.
Keep in mind the following:
1. Phil inherited the Bulls with Jordan and Pippen but Doug Collins had that exact same team before him and couldn’t do a dam thing except get knocked out of the playoffs.
2. Phil inherited the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. A team that had been bounced from the playoffs the three previous years w/o a trip to the conf. finals. Phil’s gets a ring in year 1!!!
He’s doing more than just wearing a suit while Tex coaches the offence.
Man, this generation of basketball fans kills me…
Matt R. Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
While Red didn’t have West or Chamberlain, I’m pretty sure the Celtics weren’t hurting for great players.
I seem to recall that Bill Russel guy being pretty good, and I have yet to see anyone say that the Lakers held a talent advantage during the Celtic’s domination of the league.
The teams with the best talent will usually win the title. That’s pretty much how the NBA works. It’s exceedingly rare that a less-talented team wins.
But just as you can point out that Phil didn’t win without Jordan or Kobe/Shaq/Gasol, you could point out that Jordan went ringless without Phil Jackson and the Triangle, as Shaq would have without the gift from the same NBA referees in the 2006 Finals.
It’s possible that the two needed each other - the system needs the players as much as the players need the system.
BIGJ Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 5:20 pm
MihajloMoncilovich,
i know what you mean but like it said in the article “When Collins declined much of Winter’s advice, he was replaced by Phil Jackson, and the greatest coaching combo of all time was born”. you cant give credit to one without giving it to the other and PJ knows this so no need to hate. who knows, if collins would have taken to winter’s offense he might have goten a few rings. i respect Adelman a lot but if he is so much better than PJ why did the kings fire him? and even if they allegedlly got screwed that one year against the lakers what happened all those other years? it didnt stop the spurs or suns or jazz (with malone) from defeating the lakers.
harold Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
The one time where arguably the ‘lesser’ talent won would be when our Lakers got crushed by the Pistons after assembling our own HOF lineup.
Granted that we were hit with injuries and all, but still that was quite embarrassing.
frank b Said,
January 6, 2010 @ 5:56 pm
MihajloMoncilovich Said,
A very complicated amount of nothing at all.
The proof is in the pudding buddy. How many championships has the Princeton offense won? I went to Princeton, and with all due respect to the guys on the team, in my opinion there was nothing worse to watch than Pete Carill’s pass the ball around for 45 seconds and if you didn’t get a layup jack up a 20 footer offense. Yuch.
To say the Triangle offense is similar to the Princeton offense is kind of like saying the T formation in football was similar to the Single Win or some other kind of oversimplified won’t shed the light on anything valuable kind of nonsense. Chimpanzees are similar to humans aren’t they?
Phil Jackson is a winner, just like John Wooden. Jordan didn’t win squat before Phil got there. Neither did Shaq or Kobe.
However, it is undeniable that it takes a team to win championships with the coach as the leader of the team. Good coaches recognize the primacy of players over coaching theory.
John Wooden was once asked what coaches he feared when he looked down the sideline.
His response?
The ones with the best players.
jn Said,
January 7, 2010 @ 10:11 am
Conspiracy theories always make me laugh - although not so much as oversimplification. Did the Bulls have the better players in 93 vs the Suns or in 97-98 vs the Jazz?
What about Phil Jackson eating up Dunleavy and Sloan in the Finals?
Heron Said,
January 8, 2010 @ 10:19 am
Tex HOF no doubt.
I laugh at people who hate on Phil “just because he had great players” as if a coach is not responsible for great players. As if the coach has no ability to play these player to their potential based on their system. As if the coach had no issues managing egos.
Great players are great only in hindsight because they won championships. John Starks and Ewing would have been much “greater” players had they won 6 championships. So would Malone, Stockton, Webber, Bibby, Reggie and you would have just considered Jordan as another Iverson-like scoring machine if he didn’t.
But he did, and there was Pippen and Rodman and Kerr. And the head of this group was Phil and he used the Triangle. Everything matters.
Chris Said,
January 9, 2010 @ 9:20 pm
The first year MJ retired, the Bulls won 55 games — only two less then they did with Michael — and probably would have made the NBA Finals but for a horrible non-call by Hue Hollins. Among the players getting substantial minutes on that trim: Pete Myers; Bill Wennington; 36 year old Bill Cartwright; Scott Williams; and Luc Longley.
It was the purest triangle ever run — and the results were amazing.
Mike Said,
January 11, 2010 @ 11:07 am
Why was Gary Payton not able to get the Triangle Offense?
Alan Said,
January 11, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
What a great article, so insightful, such a great look behind the cameras. Tex should really get that Hall of Fame nod; who knows how long he’ll be around and he should get to see such a deserved honor.
Roland Lazenby Said,
January 14, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
To answer a couple of quick questions:
Mike, Payton is like many players today who play by instinct. System offenses require them to learn the system, then integrate their instincts where they fit.
The older a player is, the more the challenge. Ron Harper was terrible at the triangle until it finally clicked for him in his third season with it. He went on to be considered an old hand at the offense and was brought in to help teach it to a young Lakers team in 1999.
As for you guys fighting over the Princeton and Triangle offenses, another similarity they share — and this is major — is that they both employ two-guard fronts. As Tex always believed, a two-guard front helps keep floor balance. And it helps to keep one defender back most of the time.
Peace,
Roland