Jury is out on Iverson trade
This trade just came from out of nowhere. I am shocked, but Joe Dumars has proven on a consistent basis that he can see things a little ahead of most general managers. The only hole on Dumars’ resume is not drafting Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade instead of Darko Milicic. Yes, they won a title without them, but it could have possibly been a few more and the trade for Allen Iverson would not be necessary.
Dumars is not afraid to step out of the box. He parted ways with Rick Carlisle after getting to the conference finals and he replaced Larry Brown after winning a championship. Now he trades his most dependable player – Chauncey Billups – for his exact opposite – Iverson.
The question I ask is, why? I have come up with two reasons.
The first reason is economics. Billups has two years plus a team option left on a $46 million contract. The Pistons think they have a Billups clone in Rodney Stuckey sitting on the bench. They looked at the chance to secure a top-notch star in Iverson, who has an expiring contract to go along with their best all-around player, Rasheed Wallace, who also is in a contract season.
Now we begin to see what Dumars is thinking about. He is rebuilding his team for the future while taking one last shot at a championship. If the ploy fails, then Dumars will conduct a sign-and-trade or allow Iverson and Wallace to walk at the end of the season, thus turning over a young team with one very good veteran in Richard Hamilton, who just agreed to an extension, to new coach Michael Curry.
This leads me to another reason… Players leading the asylum and not the coach.
It has been quite obvious that this unit has been together too long. When I watched the Pistons over the last few years, I felt like they coached themselves. They had more meetings as a group before huddles and after huddles than any team I have ever seen. The average fan would probably think that is great and it sends a message about how close and trusting the Piston players are of each other – which is a true observance. But what they don’t see is the message sent to the coaches… That they are secure in what they should be doing and are beyond help from the very person that is paid to lead them.
Flip Saunders is a very good coach and he never got the chance to coach this unit and I believe Joe Dumars is not going to allow Curry to succumb to the attitude and stubbornness of this veteran team.
Although money is a major concern, I believe this second reason is what encouraged Dumars to set up the reconstruction of this team and start to focus on young players like Rodney Stuckey, Arron Afflalo, Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.
He cannot continue to change coaches every few years and I agree it is time to break up the dominant attitude of a veteran team that has not lived up to expectations since the 2004 championship.
Will Allen Iverson help Detroit?
First, let me say I love Iverson. I think he, along with Isiah Thomas, is the toughest and most physical player in the history of the league regardless of size. Iverson is definitely the best scoring small player ever in this league and will be a first ballot Hall of Famer when he retires, but the jury will be out for a while on how he will mesh in Detroit.
Detroit is a methodical offensive unit and I wonder if Iverson can control himself early in the shot clock to allow Detroit to control tempo. The last methodical team Iverson played for was Philadelphia, but he was first, second and third option there. That will not be the case in Detroit, so it will be interesting to see how he fits in and also how Curry plays him. Does he start? Does he come off the bench as a potent sixth man and Stuckey starts or does Hamilton move to the three spot and they play small with Rasheed at center?
I imagine Curry will try all of the above, but the Detroit fans better enjoy it because the rebuilding phase has started.
Will Billiups excel in Denver?
A resounding yes is my answer. This is a huge pick-up for Denver. Billups will bring stability, confidence and leadership to a team that up to now had no idea how good and talented it is. Billups will allow Carmelo Anthony to become the best small forward in the Western Conference. Anthony fought for shots playing with Iverson, but now he has a star in Billups that could care less about points and can get players like Nenê, and JR Smith to produce solid numbers as well.
Finally, George Karl has to convince Antonio McDyess to stay in Denver to play a role similar to the one Marcus Camby used to play there. The Nuggets then will definitely have a chance to compete for a playoff spot and become another in a long list of talented Western Conference teams.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
Denver NOW looks like what Detroit should have looked like in 2004. I think this automatically makes Denver a top 5 team in the West. Now, added to Carmelo’s excellent mid-range game is Chauncey’s clutch play - Denver never really had a closer, which is needed to win in the NBA.
Eddie - You forgot to mention that Detroit wants to be in the LeBron sweepstakes when his contract is up. Who else does? New Jersey? New York? You can add Detroit to that list now.
Andy Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
I don’t like this deal for Denver. They don’t keep McDyess and I’m not sure if Billups is really going to make much of a difference. IF they make the playoffs, it will only result in a first round exit.
I would have rather let the iverson deal expire, and look for a running mate for Carmelo.
Jaron Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
Denver top 5 with Nene and Kenyon Martin with Birdman off the bench? Can you really trust that group?
Carmelo Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 2:28 pm
I think this is great for denver we, I mean they, get a true point and an upgrade on D. Iverson will score a lot f points no matter where he is. That is all we know for sure about Detroits end of this deal.
Ballathrilla Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
Eddie, you forgot to mention that the Pistons traded Billups in order to take bid in for Chris Bosh. Which in the Piston’s case, would benefit pretty well.
baitboy Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
denver and boston are the big winners here. denver get and awesome clutch ball distributor in billups and boston will get more firepower when dice is bought out:)
pistons rebuild but they have some good youngsters so i don’t think they’ll lose much, they will probably miss out on the the playoffs once or twice before they’re back there fighting again.
but they will have one last chance to go deep again this season if AI gels….
Oz Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
So many writers seem to think that Iverson to Detroit is iffy for the short run (true) but they also think way to much of BIlliups. Yes he is a court leader. but his court runs at a snails pace. He walks the ball up most of the time and I can’t see Denver going that slow and being effective. He also can not keep a quick guard in front of him to save his live. They drive right by him. So without Camby, some serious shot blockers like he had earlier in Detroit or a great team defense i don’t see it making them anything special. Just look at Ben Wallace, Dumars knew that his athleticism was waning (Same as Billups now is) and see how much his game has lost and you see where Billiups will be shortly.
Ted Nelson Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 3:59 pm
I agree that this was a good deal for Denver basketball wise, and a mediocre one for Detroit. However, Dumars’ logic is pretty obvious: 1. he gets a player who is only slightly worse than Billups to remain competitive, 2. gets playing time for Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, and maybe Kwame Brown along with Stuckey, and 3. gets a huge amount of cap flexibility.
“The only hole on Dumars’ resume is not drafting Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade instead of Darko Milicic.”
Don’t get me wrong Joe D is one of the best execs in the NBA, but he has also drafted Rodney White (#9 when Joe Johnson went 11th, Vladamir Radmonovic 12th, and Richard Jefferson 13th) and Mateen Cleaves (over NBA players including Hedo, Speedy Claxton, Jamaal Magloire,Q Richardson, and Morris Peterson).
“their best all-around player, Rasheed Wallace”
Their best all-around player WAS Billups, and now I don’t know but maybe Iverson. Rasheed Wallace has posted a true shooting % (TS%) of around .515 or so in Detroit, compared to Billups’ TS% of around .600 in that time period or Iverson’s of .540 to .550. Sheed is also a mediocre rebounder and scores less frequently than Billups/Iverson and Hamilton. His Roland Rating (which combines own vs. opponent’s PER and +/-) has been worse than Billups, Hamilton, Prince, and Amir Johnson each of the last two seasons. He’s a good defender, but so are the other Pistons.
“Anthony fought for shots playing with Iverson, but now he has a star in Billups that could care less about points”
I agree that Billups is not overly concerned with scoring, but he still managed 19 points per 36 minutes on the league’s slowest team last season.
Ted Nelson Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
“Joe Johnson went 11th”
10th, excuse me.
CJ Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 4:05 pm
Stuckey a Billups clone? i think that’s a bit of a stretch EJ. C-Bills is a pass first point guard and a floor general like few others in the league. Stuckey although talented, is always looking for his own shot.
As for AI in Detroit, i think it’s a worthwhile risk. The previous Detroit core had a number of chances to add to their championship totals, but haven’t been able to. and they’re only getting older. The previous core wasn’t going to last that long anyways.
And each time they’ve been knocked out of the playoffs, no one on Detroit was able to step up and respond to the star power of their opposition, be it D-Wade, Lebron, or Boston’s Big 3. At least with AI they have a guy who can offensively go toe-to-to with these superstars.
Jim Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
This trade should work out good if McDyess comes back to Detroit. Chauncey is showing decline in his game and not showing enough veteran savvy to make up for it.
Siz33 Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Basically here’s what’s going to happen with the Nuggets:
One of their bigs will get injured.
Melo will score slightly more points.
They’ll win 50 games, squeak into the bottom of the West where Billups will be eaten alive in the first round by either Chris Paul, Deron Williams, or Tony Parker, and they’ll be out in 5 games.
Or maybe they’ll play the Lakers. Then the Nuggets will get swept.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
Billups is a big, tough defender. Denver WAS lacking defense. Now, they can compete with the PGs in the West - Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Deron Williams - something they couldn’t do before on the defensive end.
Great move, Denver.
And, look for A.I. to have a blast in Detroit. A.I. is still an amazing player. I’ve never seen someone better than him at generating points.
Manfred Towes Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
Ted Nelson offers up Hollinger-caliber analysis above. Clear, balanced and cogent, unlike the babbling rabble delivered by most sport aficianados. Great stuff, friend.
MT
Drake Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 9:02 pm
Not to change the subject, but did anyone else notice that Eric Musselman is now writing for probasketballnews.com??
http://www.probasketballnews.com
Good to see these old players and coaches are finding work.
Darron Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 9:06 pm
Why do people always bring up that Joe D could have selected such n such. Every damn GM in the league has done that, and fu*ked up than Dumars, yet he gets blasted for it. The Darko pick, worked itself out with Rodney Stuckey. So what White, Cleaves were bust. Detroit is the only team that doesn’t get effected by mistakes, the only reason they haven’t won championships is they beat themselves by playing that we play when we want to type ball. Joe is the best in the Biz and people need to stop judging him. He’s not like former bad boy Mr.Thomas when it comes to running a team
Matt Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
Who isn’t in the Lebron Sweepstakes? The Suns get Shaq’s 20 mil off the books and Amare’s contract is up. You think those two might figure out a way to play together? NYC sounds great but what will they have in 2010. LeBron will want to be teamed with a star in his prime. Who would be better than Amare?
Michael Bennett Said,
November 5, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
LeBron had 41 tonight.
Amare had 49.
If they played together, the world would blow up.
Omar Aberilla Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 2:58 am
It’s a win-win situation for both teams. Allen Iverson remains to be one of the best to ever play this game. Talent-wise, the Pistons has the edge over the Nuggets. Billups’ asset is his mental toughness in clutch situations and his inclination to getting his teammates involved. But you’d be lying to yourself if you’d think the Nuggets has the upperhand in this deal because of how Billups seems to be a more perfect fit for his new team than Iverson is to his. No matter what happens, the one with the better player wins out. And honestly, given the right situation, with the right group of guys (which the Pistons have), Iverson may just win his first championship. The Pistons have been long together and for sure they are going to make Iverson walk that straight path. Because in essence, Iverson needs the Pistons more than the Pistons need him. Unless he proves to be “The Answer” to the Pistons’ cause.
George J Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 4:41 am
think Joe scored a big one again. Seems silly that Denver let go of a true point who could score and elad the team, Andre Miller, tog et AI and now they are reversing that by getting another true point who can score except older and for more money. Not sure what they were thinking in the first place. I think it’s more of a money move than making their team better. They need to get Kiki back in their front office. I
Ted Nelson Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 8:06 am
MT,
Appreciate it. You should check out Knickerblogger.net. I don’t write for the blog, but it’s a good blog that myself and several other like-minded fans are addicted to. The subject is usually related to the Knicks, but you might still find it interesting if you’re not a Knicks fan and we could probably use a non-Knicks fan perspective from time to time.
Matt,
Good point, who knows what will happen in 2010 or before then. However, if the Knicks or any other team have the cap space they can attempt to sign 2 of LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Amare and become an instant contender (provided they have a few other decent players and pick up the cheap veterans who flock to contenders). Not that it’s easy to pull off.
A similar strategy backfired on Orlando, but they had very little depth and the bad luck of Hill’s injury was pretty rare. If a team signs LeBron and one of the other 3, I have to believe they’re the favorite going into the season with even an average team around that 2-man core.
Omar,
It’s not at all clear that AI was better than Billups last season or for the last few seasons: Billups is a better playmaker, better rebounder, regarded as a better defender, and is a more efficient scorer. AI scored more, generally played more minutes, and has been better on his career.
Billups has probably been one of the most underrated players in the NBA recently, I think he’s hurt by the consensus that all the Pistons are very good. They are mostly very good, but I think it leads to their individual production being overlooked (especially because no one has to play 40 mpg so their per game stats suffer compared to other top players).
Check out this head to head comparison of their stats from last season, especially the “Per 36 Minutes” and “Advanced” (you can click on “glossary” for any stats you’re unfamiliar with) sections:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=2008&p2=billuch01&y2=2008
Most overall player ratings (Roland Rating, PER, Wins Produced per 48) would agree that they were both very good last season but Billups was better.
yuan Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 8:35 am
my suggestion…… to maximize AI detroit has to trade prince for odom so that odom will handle the play making and iverson and hamilton will be free to look for their shots. im not kidding this will be an awesome team….odom iverson hamilton maxiel and rasheed….then take mcdyess back once he is waived by the nuggets. odom is not given due respect in LA… and prince will be a better fit for them playing the three position.
MARLON MANGUIAT Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 9:41 am
i said it before..( look for my comment about ai it is in celts won the Championship last season) this year its A.I.’s year to get the ring… im now a detroit fan
Michael Bennett Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 9:55 am
I’ll guarantee that Detroit doesn’t win the ring this year. They’ll be a Playoff team like usual, but not only is this move not designed for a championship this year, the Pistons with A.I. will still have to beat the Celtics AND LeBron, which they haven’t done in 2 years.
This trade makes Denver a better looking team - players fit their spots better - but, George Karl and Chauncey Billups must shift the team’s focus to defense, which I think will happen.
Celtics, Lakers, Cavs, Rockets - these teams focus on defense first, then offense. These are the elite teams because of that - the best Playoff-made teams right now.
When teams like the Hornets, Raptors and Suns shift the focus to defense, they’ll be in the running, too.
Alex Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 9:59 am
i really hate when people pull out the PER ratings and everything, it really slows down the flow of NBA talk
hedo has been a bust until most recently, he JUST won most improved player, so u should criticize the spurs, kings, and so on for letting him go. the magic got one good year from him and now hes considered one of the top players in his draft? the pistons have been bounced from the playoffs how many times in the eastern conference playoffs. there was obviously going to be a change on this team, i cannot understand why people are so shocked. being a pistons fan and watching every game, youre fed up at the end of the playoffs last year against boston and billups is letting rajon rondo get the best of him….it shouldn’t happen. that series solely depended on billups, since he was clearly the better player, and he didn’t step up to the plate, just how he didn’t step up to boobie gibson against cleveland or jason williams against miami.
someone had to be traded, and when people say it should have been sheed, think again. rasheed wallace is a big that has talent, something hard to find. wallace held his own against garnett and howard last year, which is something very difficult for most bigs to do. there is no other player on the market the pistons could attain at the moment, unless they could convince the suns to trade them amare(highly unlikely) prince is a multi-dimensional player that only comes along rarely in the nba that can do it all. think of prince as the pistons marion, who does it all without a play being even set for him.
iverson will light a fire under the complacent pistons, something that HAD to be done. now the pistons have a chip on their shoulder, like they did in 2004 when they won it all. billups was a big reason why this team became so complacent, not rasheed wallace like everyone likes to blame. this team is primed for tons of years of success, a feat that is something the san antonio spurs failed to do, which is inject youth into their team.
kennypayne Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
this could be great for iverson! remember his childhood hero was isiah thomas! (who used to be the greatest little man before ai and knick fiasco) maybe playing on isiah and dumar’s old team will make him play a team game.
it could inspire iverson to a new level we haven’t seen from him. plus this is the most talent iverson has ever had around him!
B-Ball Knowledge Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 1:20 pm
I’m surprised that anyone that follows the game of basketball would assume that the Pistons would continue to “walk” the ball up the court. Is there some unknown rule that the Pistons have to remain a “half court” offence?
If memory serves me correctly, this current Pistons regime has just the one NBA title. All the Eastern Conference finals appearances don’t amount to anything real if you keep getting knocked out. You strive to win, not “place” and/or “show” (for any horseracing fans out there).
You have 3 very good to great ball handlers in AI, Rip and Tay. The ball’s not gonna stick in AI’s hands. If you’ve been watching any Nuggets games, you’ll notice his shot selection has improved, and with it his shooting percentage has improved to a Kobe level! (think about it) His TO’s have decreased, and his assist total is the same as Chauncey’s.
AI plays different than Chauncey, but so does D-Wade. If the Pistons picked up D-Wade would we worry about the style of offence in Detroit? And in case you’re wondering why I picked D-Wade, isn’t his style of game eerily similar to AI’s???
Let’s step out the box and see that a change of coach, along with a change of personnel is exactly what the Pistons needed anyway.
Chauncey will be very important in Denver, but…… Will he now help Melo with his defence? Will he help JR Smith mature? Will he somehow help to keep Kenyon and Nene healthy? Will he do anything to assist with that weak bench? Will he start making up for Camby’s absence underneath?
Denver’s issues weren’t AI…..they were a whole bunch of other things.
Good trade for both teams, but to me, only Detroit remains a tru contender now that they added a Tier 1 star to a group formerly made up of Tier 2 or 3 stars.
Fishwagon Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
Iverson will NEVER win a championship. At his peak he made his choices. His priorities were to be the highest-paid and most respected player in the game. It all comes back to ‘practice’. He felt that a championship was going to be a given because of his talent. It is a talent that was squandered.
Abraham Froman Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
Check out this piece on JoeSportsFan.com: http://www.joesportsfan.com/column.php?postid=3341
dj hott Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 2:53 pm
u guys are iverson haters.
iverson is a allstar every year, top 5 steals every year,same or better fg %as billups, more assist.
the east is weaker and iverson can make them better or not worse, then is freeing up money or can be traded for shaq and a pick
even if they let iverson go and wallace
with 30 million a season available
with a line up of
g-stuckey
g-r.hamilton
f-prince
f.maxiel
c-a.johnson
u have a 7-9 seed in the east, still celtics are superior, this year and next , and lebron is a mj type of player
iverson this year gives the pistons the best backcourt in the nba
rasheed may get traded since he thinks the trade is not good before 1game- rasheed cant even average 15pts or 10boards
they can now trade rasheed wallace to clippers for camby
clippers get a traditional powerforward, not injury prone, and who is a free agent after next year
detroit makes camby happy, and is a shot blocker and rebounder that rasheeds not, is in the weaker east, and has played with iverson
g-a.iverson-23ppg 7.5 asts
g-r.hamilton 19ppgcombo stuckey
f-t.prince-16ppgf-afflo
f-a.johnson 10.8ppg 8.2rebsg-maxiel
c-camby-11.9ppg 12.9rebs 3.5blks c-k.brown
they may could give boston a scare, or this new team if everyone plays their game
loul deng sux, rose is a allstar in the east
east allstar team
g-a.iverson g-j.calderon f-e.brand
g-d.wadeg-j.johnson g-r,hamilton
f-l.jamesf-p.pierce
f-k.garnett f-c.bosh injury reserves- d.rose,c.butler,m.redd,r.jefferson
c-d.howard c.camby
dj hott Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
denver sux- they let camby go for nuthin
and they could have let AI WALK TO SAVE 20 MILLION
WITH A 15PICK IN PATRICK PATTERSON,TYLER HANSBROUGH OR N.CALATHES,
THEY COULD GET BOOZER, OR BOSH
T.PARKER IS ON A TEAR AS IS AMARE
EDDIE WHAT ABOUT IVERSON FOR SHAQ,S.SINGLETARY&PICK
Dan Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
Good trade for both teams. Detroit needed a shake up. I’m sorry but this group was growing stale and was clearly on the decline. It was never going to win another championship with this group. Iverson is hungry, but it’s questionable how he will fit in and how he will affect team chemistry. At worst, they get a lot of cap space to sign another player like a Chris Bosh, Amare Stoudamire, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade, Lebron James, Carlos Boozer, etc. It’ll more likely be a big like Boozer or Bosh, but you never know.
Denver was going nowhere, so this gives them a chance to make the playoffs. And it does free up points for Anthony, but Denver is stuck with Billups who is clearly on the Decline. This would have been a better trade if Billups was 5-6 years younger. Good luck Denver. I doubt the team you have around Billups is good enough to make it out of the West. It might not even be capable of a playoff push. It was still a good trade because it does make them better, but this is only a short term quick fix not a long term solution. They might have been better off letting Iverson’s contract expire.
sam Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 7:05 pm
The only hole on Dumars’ resume is not drafting Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade instead of Darko Milicic. Yes, they won a title without them, but it could have possibly been a few more and the trade for Allen Iverson would not be necessary.
nice article but that paragraph disrespects what chris bosh is doing in the league right now. between dwades injuries and melos score only brand basketball, in 5 years, i think bosh will be considered up there with the big 3 of this draft, if not passed them. right now, if i had that second pick, i would take bosh over melo and after wade and hope wade isnt injury prone over his career.
DETROIT JUAN Said,
November 6, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
First off…everyone is all over Boston. Lets talk about this for a second. Boston got rid of the one player that beat the Pistons: James Posey. Without James Posey, they wont make it to the finals this year. The big three are good, but Detroit will have an answer for them(no not ivo)…Detroit’s defense under Curry, is looking better every game. Boston is used to teams laying down and letting them score. This Detroit team WILL GO ALL THE WAY. Everyone is not paying attention to Detroit’s defense this year- They are playing smash mouth, we’ll put you on your back, and in your face defense. Teams like Boston, Cleveland, and the Lakers are used to teams not playing defense, and trying to beat them offensively. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!! Last thing…EVERYONE on Detroit’s team can score! One night WIll BYNUM- who by the way is rookie, Next night it will be Walter Hermann…ANYONE CAN EXPLODE ANY GIVEN NIGHT. Micheal Curry and Joe Dumars are a match made in Heaven. DEEEEETROIT BASSKETBAL!!!!
Scuz Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 12:12 am
Pistons are in it for 2010, thats it, Iverson is there way of getting in there for the bidding war.
@Michael Bennett
Celtics, Lakers, Cavs, Rockets - these teams focus on defense first, then offense. These are the elite teams because of that - the best Playoff-made teams right now.
What about the Spurs, are they not defensive enough for you. Ill take there defense over Lebron any day, at least the Spurs can hit there free throws when it counts.
tp Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 3:22 am
Both teams improved their chances with the trade: Detroit gets to try a new approach and a lot of flexibility for next Summer, and Denver gets a much more balanced roster. However, I do not like the way the Nuggets basically committed to their current group for the next three years or so: the team is not good enough to contend, and they will be too close to luxury tax hell to make significant upgrades.
Michael Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 6:24 am
The Cavs play defense? Please let me know when to tune in. I’ve gotta see this for myself.
The thing about the NBA these days is that the media takes for gospel every word the coaching staff or players say about a team. If a team proclaims themselves to be defensively-oriented, then that’s what they are in the eyes of the media, no matter what they actually produce on the court. See also: the American political system. You can seemingly talk your way into anything in America…
Houston are a TERRIBLE defensive team. They have t-mac “locking down” the guards and Yao the Great Wall of Trying holding down the middle. I honestly cannot recall Yao blocking a single shot ever. The only reason he is still there is because he produces decent “statistics” (again, when has he EVER had a decent game against a team with a proper frontcourt?) and is the centerpiece of the ever-lucrative Asian market. There are no ballers in Asia, the market is huge, sure, but as far as basketball players go they are yet to produce zip. Just another example of the NBA chasing the dollar above all else.
Artest is a decent defender, but again, the man talks about nothing but defense, so the media naturally follows suit by institutionalising him as the League’s Best Defender. When was the last time he actually played lock down D? I mean proper “lock down” D, not “hustle your heart out for the first 3 seconds, before being blown past by a quicker, younger opponent and committing a late foul” D. Artest, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O’Neal, Vince Carter, these guys are the hallmarks of the Darkest Days of the NBA. For some reason everyone takes these guys’ word over their performance. All they do is talk.
And I sorta like these guys, that’s why it annoys me that Rasheed talks himself up as one of the most dominant forwards in the league when all he has these days is a turnaround fade away jumper and about five rebounds per game.
Luckily there’s lots of humble younger guys coming through these days that leave it all on the court, I thought it would never happen…
The most positive shift I see happening in the NBA is this, and the out-moding of guys who need too many shots to get their points.
Play the game the right way, it ain’t hard.
V.T Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 6:45 am
Anyone who dont think A.I is an upgrade from Chauncey does not know basketball. Dont get me wrong Chauncey is good but hes to slow and he cant make a lay up , it was time for this to happen , it should have happened last year . I guarantee A.I will have better all around stats than Chauncey ever had. I appreciate everything Chauncey did for us but im glad to see him go. Thanks Joe.D
Michael Bennett Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 9:46 am
Michael - What’s with the conspiracy theory about everything? The media usually covers whatever the story is. And, although the media isn’t perfect, far from it, basketball media is the best in the business.
You say “Artest is a decent defender?” You’re nuts. He’s one of the top 3 defenders in the league, if not THE best. Why? Not because the media tells us he is. It’s because he can guard positions 1-4 and he’s lockdown on the best players in the league. It’s that simple. There’s no way around it. Watch the guy. Watch everyone else’s fear of playing against him.
As for the Cavs defense… There ARE a defensive minded team that slows the pace of the game down and holds teams to under 90 ppg. And, they hold other teams to around 35 rpg. And, they hold teams to roughly .420 FG%. These are all top 10 in the league, usually top 5. Those are stats. Those are facts.
You don’t know anything. You just get on this message board and post random crap from the observations from the 3 games you watch every week. Try watching at least 5 games a DAY and then talk to us. You look stupid. But, the world needs bartenders, too.
scuz Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
@Michael Bennett
They have played 5 games….Do you honestly believe that those stats mean anything…..throwing stats out there 5 games into the season is pointless, its to early intot he season to say anything, becuase if thats the case, Atlanta is one of ther best teams in the league. Do you believe that Tony Parker will lead the league in scoring.
Yeah Cleveland is good, but there not Top 5 , no way no how. lebron is not the best, if he was he would have hit those free throws.
Tour talking out your ass, you are so BIAS when it comes to Cleveland i cant halp but rip them.
Where do you get of saying….
Celtics, Lakers, Cavs, Rockets - these teams focus on defense first, then offense. These are the elite teams because of that - the best Playoff-made teams right now.
what is wrong with you…are you that full of yourself, that you include cleveland in all your arguments.
There isnt just 4 teams that are elite, and cleveland isnt 1 of them. They got to the finals with pure luck, lebron carried the entire team and when 1 player has to do that, you can’t win
….I forgot about the Hornets and Spurs, They suck, there not an elite team or contender at all, must have slipped past your big ignorant ego.
Stanley_Roberts Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
I think that Denver got better in this deal, simply because of Billups all round game.
DETOIT JUAN Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
YO WHAT I SAID WAS TEAMS LIKE BOSTON, CLEVELAND, AND A COPLE OTHERS ARE USED TO TEAMS NOT NOT NOT NOT PLAYING DEFENSE ON THEM….ESPECIALLY BOSTON. BOSTON EXPECTS EVERYONE TO JUST LET THEM SCORE, and WHEN A TEAM PLAYS HONEST DEFENSE AGAINST BOSTON–THEY LOOSE.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
English motherf$%ker. Do you speak it?
scuz Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 7:02 pm
Good one…you must have thought long and hard on that. Surprised you didnt say anything about Lebron, defend your king if you can. LOL.
Michael Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 8:50 pm
bennet - Hahaha I only watch 3 games a week.
You’re right I should really be watching 5 games a day…
I spend my time playing ball, not watching 5 games a day.
Idiot.
Again, Cleveland are defensively-minded, while that goes a long way, they are NOT a good defensive team. They are terrible franchise on and off the court, still riding on nothing more than some HUGE luck in the lottery a few years back. But you already knew that…
And if you want to throw stats at me like that, you clearly don’t have the grasp of The Game that you think you do. But you already knew that too, that’s why you put emphasis on things like statistics and “watching 5 games a day”.
Nuff Said,
November 7, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
The only hole on Dumars’ resume is not drafting Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade AND CHRIS BOSH instead of Darko Milicic.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 10:00 am
Oh, God… Is there anything worse than some doofus admitting he doesn’t watch the NBA (because he’s playing soooo much bball) and still trying to argue his point?
The Cavs ARE a really good defensive team. They’ve proved that over the last three season when they’ve gone deep into the Playoffs BECAUSE of their defense… and LeBron James.
And, about LeBron… He’s the only player in the NBA that you can surround with any 4 guys and will no matter what make the Playoffs, and no matter what be a title contender. Like he said, “You’re always going to have a chance as long as I’m in uniform.” That’s the fact. There is not another player in the NBA that has that affect. Kobe sure doesn’t. He didn’t make the Playoffs a couple of years ago. Although injured for most of the season, Dwyane Wade’s team last year was league’s worst.
Think about it… Kobe needs two all-stars to make a deep Playoff run and lose in the Finals. LeBron needed scrubs to make a deep Playoff run and lose in the Finals.
I know this will never convince naysayers. But, it does prove that you naysayers are morons.
tp Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 12:12 pm
Actually, LeBron James did have one allstar in his finals run.
kingsblade Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
“The only hole on Dumars’ resume is not drafting Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade AND CHRIS BOSH instead of Darko Milicic.”
I had no ideas that they could have had both Wade AND Bosh. That would have been a real coup.
scuz Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
@Michael Bennett
I cant believe you said this…You have to be the biggest dumbass around.
“And, about LeBron… He’s the only player in the NBA that you can surround with any 4 guys and will no matter what make the Playoffs, and no matter what be a title contender.”
I team him up with….
C - Calvin Booth
PF - Cedric Simmons
SF - Lebron “Queen” James
SG - Stephen Graham
PG - Mike Wilks
There are probably worse players, but at a quick glance this is what i came up with…
Good luck winning any games with these 5….I gave you Calvin Booth because hes awesome, and Lebron needs a legitimate 2nd scorer.
Jay Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 8:45 pm
It was a good trade for both teams. The Nuggets and AI just didn’t mesh well. Perhaps, it would have worked better with a true point guard to feed AI and Melo on the break like the old Suns squad.
AI has a tremendous skill-set. He needs to cut down on the isolation plays and move the ball. Denver had some terrible habits. Guys just crossed the half-court and started gunning without a single pass. If he uses his speed and quickness to create shots given his scoring threat then it will help the other guys get open looks. Also, I hope AI can bring some fire back to the Pistons. They just coast through the regular season and it shows in the playoffs.
Nuff Said,
November 8, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
kingsblade, thank you for pointing out the error i made in using logical operators. i would now like to point out that you are gay.
Michael Said,
November 9, 2008 @ 1:35 am
Bennet - I can think of something worse: armchair analysts like you that have clearly never played the game repeating stuff you’ve heard the players and coaching staff say. Cleveland doesn’t play defense, and if you think they do, you don’t know basketball.
Defense is more than hustle. Defense is a team concept. It’s about commitment, and tetbook lateral movement. Most guys don’t posess these attributes, and try to make up for it with flopping or hustle.
Any weak link in the defensive chain is eventually exploited by an opponent. Four guys playing the league’s best lockdown D won’t matter if there’s one guy not playing perfect defence. This is the difference between the Boston Celtics and the LA Lakers. The Lakers have a few decent defenders, but that doesn’t mean anything when you have a Sasha Vujacic or Radmonivic fake hustling, whinging and flopping around. Cleveland only has 3 or 4 guys TOPS at any time on the floor who commit on defense, and as such, the rest of the hustle don’t mean squat.
JK Said,
November 9, 2008 @ 2:11 am
There is a nice article that looks forward to the 2010 free agent class and Detroit’s plans that follows up to what this article talks about. It’s at http://sportsepicenter.blogspot.com/2008/11/detroit-pistons-nba-2010-free-agency.html. It’s more about the long-term ramifications of this trade for Detroit.
tp Said,
November 9, 2008 @ 6:27 am
Well, then it’s amazing how the Cavs managed to battle the Celtics to a 2-2 standstill despite four straight poor showings by LeBron. Including one 20-point win and two games where the Celtics could not score 80. Just a fluke, I guess.
Defense is simply disrupting the opposition offense. If you can do it without a team concept, it’s fine. If you can do it with hustle, it’s fine. If you can do it with flopping, it’s fine.
It’s a bit ironic that he who talks about “armchair analysts” then has his preconceptions overrule reality.
PS: I forgot to mention that last season LeBron had a whopping three all-stars alongside him in Cleveland. How did that turn out?
Michael Bennett Said,
November 9, 2008 @ 10:53 am
tp - You’re confusing Michael with me, Michael Bennett. Michael is a bozo who thinks because he plays pick-up games the YMCA twice a week, he’s an NBA genius. Michael Bennett (me) is saying that the Cavs are a defensive minded team who FINALLY put in a offensive system to work to Mo Williams and LeBron’s strengths.
Michael doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Michael Bennett is educated in the game of basketball. Get it? Got it? Good.
Now, please tell me, WHO ARE THE THREE ALL-STARS LEBRON PLAYED WITH LAST YEAR? Am I missing something? The only representative from the Cleveland Cavaliers in Las Vegas last year was LeBron James. So… What the kcuf are you talking about?
BTW - I was sitting Row 3 in the Cavs/Bulls game last night, so I saw LeBron scorch the Bulls, going for 41 and 13 rebounds. Two big, clutch 3s to secure the win. He hit 11-13 FTs in the game. His averages on the season are 28ppg, 9rpg and 7apg. For those of you who still don’t think he’s the best in the game, OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
Eddie - How did you like Chicago on Friday? Sorry I missed ya. Your boys got a spankin’.
Michael Said,
November 9, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
Bennett - I’m confused with the points you’re trying to make…
Do you actually think Cleveland are a good team?
Do you think any team can win with Mo Williams?
Do you think Lebron James is a great defensive player?
If you answer “yes” to any of the above, then I concede defeat since engaging you in a logical basketball argument is impossible.
Every time you make a case you make one quick point before the body of what you say is largely waffling off on some unrelated tangent about Cleveland or Kobe Bryant being overrated.
Craig Said,
November 10, 2008 @ 7:29 am
I’m sure it’s been written before but as great of a trade mastermind Joe Dumars is, his draft record borders on abysmal (even taking Darko out of the conversation).
From letting Michael Redd slip past them (along with a still in the league very serviceable Mo Pete) in order to draft Mateen Cleaves to getting suckered into Michael Jordan’s assessment that Rodney White was “the one” and in turn watching Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Gerald Wallace, Tony Parker and Gilbert Arenas slip off the draft board, Joe has proven one thing: he has a lot to learn (still) from the draft.
As for the AI trade, I think it’ll bomb. Iverson wants the freedom of creating his own shots. The Pistons like setting up shots. There will be no compromise and I see Iverson and the Pistons folding out of the second round of the playoffs.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 10, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Every single team in the NBA passed on drafting Gilbert Arenas, so you can’t really bring that up as a draft day blunder.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 11, 2008 @ 12:05 am
Eddie - After seeing tonight’s game close up, who’s better:
OJ Mayo
or
Derrick Rose????
Ron Said,
November 11, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
Everyone is busy debating who got the better end of the deal but the bottom line is that both of these teams to make some changes. Detroit hasn’t been able to get passed the Eastern Conference Finals in years and with Boston, Cleveland and now Philadelphia and Toronto, the East that much more competitive.
Iverson brings much needed star power to a team full of good, yet complacent veterans who’ve already won a championship and overrated youngsters (Rodney Stuckey, especially… to be continued) who do have tons of potential, but aren’t quite there yet. Now in his thirtys, Iverson realizes that his chances of winning a championship are decreasing and is hungrier than ever now that he has players like Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince (not Eric Snow, Aaron McKie and Derrick Coleman) on his team to make a title run.
Chauncey, on the other hand, is a steady, team-oriented and defensive minded point guard who is a great team leader. He gets players involved but he isn’t afraid to take the big shot in the clutch. Carmello Anthony should thrive with Billups on his side. The only is, they’re in the Western Conference. Gulp!
Denver and Detroit were both in need of change, and that’s been the popular thing to do lately (just ask Barack Obama). If Detroit goes on a tear with Iverson back in the East, look for other Eastern Conference teams to take a page from the Mavs and Suns, and try to acquire big names like Shawn Marion and Vince Carter to add some spunk to their rosters before the trade deadline. If not, Iverson becomes a free sgent in the off-season and the Pistons can decide what they want to do (sign Chris Bosh or Carlos Boozer).
On a side note, I have a huge problem with the Rodney Stuckey “Billups clone” reference. He has accomplished anything yet to receive such a comparison. Chauncey Billups is a stud. To me, Stuckey is still in the same class with the Daniel Gibsons, Louis Williams’ and Jarrett Jacks of the NBA- NOT the Chauncey Billups’. Or at least, not yet.
Peter Robert Casey Said,
November 14, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
AI is starting to fit. I may have wrong about this adjustment for the Pistons.
Michael Bennett Said,
November 17, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
I hate to beat a dead horse, but…
LeBron is OBVIOUSLY the best player in the league.
DWade is showing exactly what I said - he’s better than Kobe/2nd best player in the game.
Because of LeBron, the Cavs are one of the best 3 teams in the league.
Man… How right am I?
Michael Bennett Said,
November 22, 2008 @ 2:20 am
Eddie, you should talk about how much Kobe and the Lakers are loving the “LeBron to NY” and “2010 Free Agent” nonsense.
It allows them to quietly have the league’s best record while demolishing teams and keeping the large target off their back.
This media hype over something that will happen in over 550 days is getting out of hand. It proves how much Americans, or specifically the media, has an attention span of a four year old. Come on! Talk about what’s going on NOW! Here are the amazing stories of the NBA this year:
- Lakers (10-1) and Celtics (12-2) are the League’s two best teams and are more than likely going to meet in the Finals, if they keep up this pace and if they stop LeBron. This will be a repeat Finals and a complete revival of one of sport’s greatest team rivalries. This makes Christmas even more special this year.
- Andris Biedrins is leading the league in rebounding with over 14 per game… 14!!! He’s turned into a legitimate Center who can score (over 16 ppg), rebound and play defense.
- Dwyane Wade is back and maybe better than ever. He’s having a stellar season - second in the league in scoring, fifth in assists, and, get this - he’s averaging 2.5 spg and 2 bpg!!! 2 bpg at 6′4″!!! He’s The Man down in My Hammy (better than Kobe).
- The reemergence of the East. All the people (which is almost EVERYONE on here) who said the East sucks, now have to bow down and kiss my feet. The East is the better Conference. They’re winning the head-to-head W/L match-ups. They have better overall records. And, they have 5 of the top 6 teams in the league.
- Dwight Howard’s Orlando. 9-3. Looking like a solid contender. And, The Smile is the reason. He’s the league’s best Center, easily. Second in the League in rebounding, over 21 ppg. And, he leads the league in blocks with 4 per game. He’s a beast. He’s a monster. He’s The Smile.
- The All-Star Danny Granger??? At 24 ppg and the obvious leader in Indiana, Danny Granger is turning into a star. He’s a three point threat with strength and quickness, and he’s only getting better.
- Derrick Rose is the best PG in the East… and he’s a rookie. He’s the best player Chicago has had since Jordan (and Pippen). This guy is lights out amazing. One of the quickest players in the league. And, he’s got a extra step ladder when he elevates. Everyone questioned his shot before the season… his mid-range pull-up is one of his strengths. People said he couldn’t shoot threes… he’s at over .350 and hitting big 3s when it matters. This guy is the real deal. So far, he’s the best rookie, with this guy #2…
- OJ Mayo. Still rough and raw. But, he’s averaging 20 ppg while shooting over 40% from beyond the arc and almost 90% from the charity stripe. When this guy fixes the very few problems he has, he’ll be a top 10 player in the League.
So, you see how there’s plenty of great NBA news besides the LeBron 2010 Sweepstakes. Although that poses interesting scenarios, it’s a LOOOOONG time off and takes away from great stuff happening.
D. Klein Said,
November 25, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
EJ, I love your blogs and being a Suns fan, I love your commentary as well. Keep up the great work!
TZIFIS GEORGE Said,
December 9, 2008 @ 11:25 am
i dont know about NBA but the best player that has ever played in europe is EDDIE JOHNSON IN OLYMPIACOS………..WE NEVER FORGET YOU