Thoughts on Game 2
Why did Boston go up 2-0 in the series? Here are the keys…
Celtics hold the Lakers to 61 points in first three quarters
The Celtics are playing lock-down defense on every player in a Lakers uniform. I thought going into this series that the pressure perimeter defense would work against the young Lakers and it has in the first two
games. The Lakers are a good shooting team, but the Celtics are keeping them out of big runs with one exception – the fourth quarter. The Celtics run at every shooter with great rotation. So even a head fake cannot give them an avenue to get layups or attack the basket and draw fouls. There is a serious reason why this team won 66 games and critics who chose the Lakers to win this series better take notice. They are so good I saw them switch four players off on Kobe Bryant on one play in the fourth quarter. They are determined to force the Lakers’ others to beat them and so far the plan has worked.
Leon Powe huge off the bench
Historically the team that wins a championship has a player that gives them a great game when least expected. Powe was the guy in Game 2, scoring 21 points. Powe sent a message to every young player in America and that is “Always be ready to play.” He was huge with his scoring and ability to get the Lakers in foul trouble. Powe shot more free throws in 15 minutes (13) than the entire Lakers team (10).
Consistent Big Three
Another 60-plus combined effort is huge by Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Pierce was the best player on the floor, especially early when the Lakers where trying to get a big lead. Allen, who struggled in the Eastern playoffs, has regained his touch and confidence. He has also made Kobe work extremely hard for every basket. Garnett has effectively opened up the middle for uncontested drives with his shooting. If this continues, the Lakers will find it hard pressed to win one game.
31 assists on 36 baskets
Wow! Although Doc Rivers can’t be happy with the Celtics meltdown in the fourth quarter, he has to be ecstatic with the ball movement and unselfish play spearheaded by Rajon Rondo, who had 16 assists.
Star of the game: Leon Powe. Leon Powe was spectacular in 15 minutes. He changed the flow of the game and gave the Celtics’ bench another victory over the more touted Lakers’ bench coming into this series. This despite not even knowing if Doc Rivers will use him or Big Baby Davis from game to game. You want to cheer for Powe, who fought odds beyond basketball to put himself into this position. A wonderful accomplishment for a young man who grew up in foster homes with his siblings when their home burned to the ground and just one parent to care for them. Hooray for Leon Powe!
Turning point: Leon Powe entered the game with the score 22-21 with 11:21 left in the second quarter. The physicality of the game increased and the Lakers seemed to wither under the pressure. With Powe getting to the line and putting pressure on the Lakers frontline, the lead grew to double figures and the Lakers were climbing up hill all night long.
Unsung hero: PJ Brown has become the huge pickup the Celtics thought he was. His defense on Pau Gasol has been solid and has allowed Garnett to keep Lamar Odom under control.
Who needs to step up? I am not picking on Lamar Odom, but he’d better step up quickly or he will be fodder for every critic with a pen. Odom must know now what Scottie Pippen felt like playing next to Michael Jordan. The difference between the two is Scottie figured it out and performed. Odom seems to be headed in reverse.
Gasol can’t be left out. He shot one free throw in Game 2. He is as soft as they come, but showed some heart with a few strong moves. The Lakers need more.
Game 3 strategy
Boston Celtics:
- Doc Rivers will treat this game like a Game 7. He knows if his team goes up 3-0 it’s over, so expect a hungry Celtic team for game 3
- The Celtics have realized that the Lakers cannot beat them if their bench matches the Lakers.
- They must continue to make the Lakers shoot jumpshots. They had a 38 to 10 free throw advantage in Game 2.
- Run the offense through Paul Pierce. The Lakers have no one who can guard him except Kobe and Phil Jackson would be making a huge mistake if he tried that matchup early in Game 3.
Los Angeles Lakers:
- Get Odom some post-ups and isolations early
- Double Paul Pierce early and often and live with Allen and Garnett taking jumpshots.
- Find a way to make it a fast game, although Rondo has been great with his pace.
- Hit somebody in the mouth and play Ronny Turiaf more minutes, especially since Luke Walton has been AWOL.
- Kobe needs to take 30-plus shots if that’s what it will take.
Prediction
You would expect the Lakers to pick it up at home, but it doesn’t matter where you play if you don’t fight. The Celtics have slapped them around despite a fourth quarter meltdown in Game 2. I honestly think the Celtics will take more from that fourth quarter than the Lakers because they won Game 2 and will go into Los Angeles and win Game 3. No way I would be thinking this could happen before the series started, but as I stated in my preview article, the Lakers are a soft unit and the Celtics are sensing it and will go up 3-0 in the series.
Derick Williams Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:55 am
Come on Eddie,
Boston did exactly what they were supposed to, win at home! You know just as well I do that a series doesn’t really start untill someone wins on someone else’s floor. You can call L.A. soft, weak or whatever, but you seem to be forgetting that they played a more physical Utah team and dominated, even though Utah won their first two at home. Just like Boston’s crowd gave them life, L.A.’s will do the same. If Boston’s defense is “soo” great they would’ve finished strong to make a statement. Instead they gave the Lakers life going back home. You know that’s a recipe for disaster going back home. Rememeber we’re dealing with Phil Jackson 9x NBA champion, an Kobe Bryant, the best player on the planet. He’s hungary and everyone will be reminded tommorow night at Staples.
My Prediction: L.A. wins all three at home in convincing fashion, and they “GO BACK 2 BOSTON” and finish in 6.
Donald Tinsley Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Obviously me and u wasnt watchin the same game, im goin to say what KOBE, PHIL and the rest of the lakers cant say cause they cant fine me, that was by far the worst officiated NBA Finals game i ever watched,dont get me wrong and i like Boston but Kobe is the MAN, and the MVP, and yesrerday they treated him like he was a call up from the NBDL it was a disgrace to all Laker fans across the world, i almost broke a friends TV it was so bad, you may need to investigate those refs as well, just kidding, (38 to 10 free throw!!!) Leon Powe has more free throw attempts than the MVP!! REFEREES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE NBA FINALS!!!!!, with that said i hope it is alot more even than last game, because that was terrible!!!!
Donald Tinsley Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:06 am
Furthermore, when the refs finally lost their whistles, KB24 and crew cut the score all the way down to 2pts but ran out of gas, it will now go 3-0; Kobe is not losing at home Eddie, you should give him more credit than that, n all the lakers play better at home, 2-2 and we steal game 5 in boston and win game 6 at home, Lakers NBA CHAMPS!!!!!!!!!!!
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:12 am
Key words: “lock-down defense”
Steve Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Kobe is not the best player on the planet, quaid. Saying it ad infinitum does not make it so.
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Yo, Donald, Game 5 is still in LA…game 6 is in Boston
Steve Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:32 am
Kobe is not the best player on the planet, quaid. Repeating it ad infinitum does not make it so.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:39 am
I think you have to lay more blame on Kobe Bryant. And, Phil Jackson. I think that’s becoming more and more evident.
Odom was in foul trouble early, so he was never in rhythm. And, the bigs of Boston are playing fantastic basketball. Odom didn’t play well, but he also didn’t have a horrible game. When he was on the floor, he was decent. Gasol was amazing in the first half, and gave the Lakers the exact production he should at a high efficiency - he had 17 points, 10 boards, and shot 8-12 from the field. That’s all the Lakers should be asking from their starting center - match Garnett’s numbers.
But, Kobe, again, was horribly inefficient. He missed shots at all the wrong times. He didn’t start warm, which is one of the keys to the Lakers winning. He fell apart on more than one play on defense. For a guy who’s considered one of the best man defenders in the game, he’s made A LOT of little mistakes in the first two games of the Finals. I think Doc Rivers’ pre-game speech would have worked better if Kobe would have heard it. He’s right/Dungy’s right - it’s the little things. And, Kobe’s not doing the little things well - fouling Paul Pierce RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REF. That’s a mental breakdown.
As for Phil Jackson, he is chasing the carrot… instead of being the carrot. Here’s what I mean. Doc Rivers is deciding the lineups, the play calling, the pace of the game. And, Phil Jackson is trying to match it. He’s trying to chase the Celtics, instead of establishing how the Lakers will play the game with confidence, and let the Celtics chase him. I disagree with you Eddie about your comment “I honestly think the Celtics will take more from that fourth quarter”. I think Phil and the Lakers figured out that if Odom isn’t playing to his expectations, then they’ll go with a small, shooting lineup in Kobe, Fisher, Vujacic, Radmanovic, and Gasol. That was the 4th Quarter team that ran and put up 41 4th Quarter points!!!
I think Kobe will come out guns blazing, and he’ll play a great Game 3. But, he must stop the whining. Be tough, no more cry baby antics like in G1 and G2.
I think Phil is rattled because his team looked so amazing in the Western Conference Playoffs, and now they look like they’re falling apart. I think that has more to do with the Celtics gelling in the Finals (what a perfect time!) and playing “lock down defense” :). But, he must remain calm and not get shaken.
The Lakers will win Game 3… setting up one of the best Game 4s in Finals history.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:45 am
PS - The refs can NEVER be blamed. Boston has home court advantage. That’s part of it. My crystal ball tells me that the Lakers will get more calls in the next three games. It’s always a wash. The refs NEVER decide a game.
For every ticky tack foul they call, they also let a travel slip (Radmanovic’s 4th Quarter steal and dunk). So, Laker fans, DON’T BLAME THE REFS.
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:50 am
Hey Guys. the sole reason why Boston gets to the line more is simple. they are the aggressors and aggression is rewarded. they have effectively closed off lanes to Kobe and he is the only one that can draw fouls.
Gasol and Odom have to be more aggressive and going home will not change the outcome if the Lakers don’t get physical.
there is a reason why Boston has beaten them in 4 straight games includung the regular season.
Play Turiaf more and get Physical with Paul Pierce that will help.
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:52 am
Donald
Powe got fouled. Every attempt he made he was hacked. Why? because it was a lay-up if they did not. So he is a poor example to use.
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:53 am
Powe got hacked and deserved every free throw. it was a lay-up if they did not foul him
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:59 am
and yet, the first thing out of Phil’s mouth,at the press conference, besides mispronouncing Powe’s name, was that he had more free throws than his entire team.
Phil has gone from “winning” to “whining”
I agree with MB — Lakers take game 3 on sheer adrenaline. After that, who knows?
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
Eddie, DIdn’t Turiaf just sign with your agent?
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
dont know, did he? if so great move!
mike Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
Eddie, I agree that the Celtics may have deserved more free throws than the Lakers, but not by a 4-1 margin! It’s hard for the Lakers to be physical and aggressive when they’re getting questionable calls against them early.
Did you see that Paul Pierce screen/flop on the offensive end to get Kobe his 3rd foul? Or what about Gasol finally going strong to the hoop and not getting rewarded with an ‘and 1′ when Garnett clearly hacked him? Those were really bad.
As is usually the case in the playoffs, I’m hoping for the home team to get the benefit of the doubt for the next few games. It should make a difference.
Eric Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:12 pm
Ray Allen’s defense on Kobe has been mentioned little, but I think he has played great defense on him the first two games. Ray has the mind set that he can guard Kobe. You can see that he is ultra confident while guarding Kobe. Some of you will say nobody is confident in guarding Kobe but Ray looks like he is trying to prove something.
Jorge Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
You guys are forgeting the no calls that allowed the lakers to get within 2 points, a foul on Pierce and after Radmanovic took lihe 8 steps from the midline to a dunk….
The game was lost because the celtics played a much, much better game…
Stop the crying, Lakers will get all the calls at home…..
tidus Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
its sad when my 5 years old niece think the officials to a professional sport r blind!!!!
Luke Gibbons Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
Lakers have to become more and more phyiscal. I do agree that somebody on the Laker team needs to take one for the team and ‘McHale’ someone. This series will go all the way if Kobe can find his shot. Thanks all….
Casey Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Eddie your right man this Lakers team is soft. If Duncan would have had another big man on his team like Perkins the Spurs might have beat them. Think about Portland next year with Oden and a 1st round pick and then Fernandez. Wow they will hurt these Lakers with thier size also. What do you think?
Luke Gibbons Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Hi guys. Look the Lakers have to step up if they even want to be considered in this series. I do agree with Eddie that somebody on the Laker team need to step up and ‘McHale’ any Celtic. Also the Lakers need to learn how to get consistant stops on the defensive end. this will immediatly translate to their offense. Kobe has to get to the line more, i believe this will be easier going home and getting the calls that the Celtics have been getting in the first two games. I’m praying for a seven game action packed series. Thanks all…..
Jesus Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 2:06 pm
Eddie…whether you believe the freethrow disparity was legitimate or not, you can’t ignore it when you talk about the keys to the game. The Celtics shot 28 more freethrows than the Lakers, and that was definitely one of the key factors that got the Celtics their big league and got the Lakers out of rhythm.
Ken Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
I think what comes down to it is that the Celtics play with heart and the Lakers try play with talent. The Celtics just want it more than the Lakers. The Celtics play defense like its supposed to be especially when you get to this stage. I think the problem with the Lakers since they are favored to win the championship is that they probably feel like they could win with just talent alone. When the Lakers were down by 20 points in the third and the Lakers had a timeout. In the huddle it looked like Kobe was the only who was pissed off and he was trying to encourage everybody else that the game was not over. That tells you alot. Everyone in the lakers have better find heart or else this series will be over quickly.
John Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
I’ve said this before and I will say it again. You CANNOT compare how Boston played against the Hawks and Cavs. Even during their 66 win season they had some blunders in games that they were not interested in (getting blownout at home vs the bobcats, losing on the road to the cavs, and nearly to Toronto/Bobcats on the road) In games where the C’s are focused and HUNGRY like against Detroit, they can win anywhere, and against anyone. I still expect the Lakers to win game 3, but I do expect Boston to win at least one out of the 3 in LA.
mike Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
you people whine as much as you want for the lakers..im not a fan of either team,but lakers dont get to the line because they dont deserve it,boston is playing great defense closing the lanes,ya powe shot more free throws than the entire laker team,but hell he deserved every one of them,and if you guys say a bunch of bs calls on lakers,,it goes both ways..rewatch the game and you will see,bottom line is you play agressive you go to the line,how many times did kobe drive to the basket? maybe 3-4 times max? the comeback doesnt mean anything,they were all 3 pointers.sure boston turned the ball over but lakers didnt play much D,boston shot 50% from the field in the quarter and scored 25 points,im not impressed with the comeback,if the lakers won,id be tho! celtics are the better team,plain and simple,lakers have the best player in the world and thats about it,rest of the cast is whatever,and i live in LA,im just real..no homer here
Jacob Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
another great article eddie.. i hope you dont get a job with a team so i can enjoy your writings and opinions (just kidding i hope for the best for you)
i have one little problem with this article…
“Kobe needs to take 30-plus shots if that’s what it will take.”
the lakers are 6-0 in the playoffs when kobe takes less than 20 shots and are 6-5 when he takes more than 20 and my belief is because when hes shooting alot hes not getting his teammates into the flow of the game. now granted if no one is stepping up then he has to shoot 100 times.
but you nailed it with the lakers dont play defense and unless they start they wont win this series… its funny most media members kept saying “the best defense is a good offense”… well hows that working out for media world.
and phil crying about officials? for a legend to do this is unheard of… also he lost his last 6 finals games and looks to be on the verge of losing his last two final apperances after being 9-9… is he losing it?
Casey Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Do you ever remember a coach who compained about the the officating as much as Phil Jackson? Why can’t he take a lesson from Popovich?
frank Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
The Celtics legitimately won the first game with a smothering defense and poor offense from the Lakers “big three”.
The second game? Come on.
One can pretend that taking 30 more free throws is not the reason that Boston won the game but simple math shows that that is one heck of a whole to dig out of. If the lakers take 10 more free throws not only would they score six to 10 more points but several Boston fast breaks would not have happened, meaning that the Celts would have scored fewer points.
Were the fouls that Kobe get called for fouls in the first half? Absolutely. But how many times was he fouled that it was not called? He took what 23 or 24 shots? To my eye, he was fouled on at least half of his possessions, especially while dribbling where apparently it is okay to bounce him around like a bobble head doll. This should have translated into a mininimum of 10 Kobe free throws.
Furthermore, since when is it not a foul because you are taking a jumpshot? Most coaches advise not fouling the jump shooter but on many jump shots he has guys hitting his arms before, during, and after he shoots. This passes as “good defense”.
Gasol was fouled a minimum of five times in the act of shooting that were not called. When Lamar Odom got “aggresive” he was rewarded with an offensive or defensive foul call.
One can argue that Boston “deserved” or earned the foul calls. If by earning the foul calls one means that they were fouled that many times, I would accept that argument. At home one always gets an advantage. But 4 to 1 (Celts fouls to Laker fouls)? Garnett and Ray Allen are jumpshooters, Rondo isn’t an aggressive offensive player, and Perkins is hardly an offensive juggernaut which leaves only Pierce among the starters as a person who slashes to the basket drawing fouls. Powe played a heck of a game and it is inspiring to see someone play with so much heart, but isn’t it a little possible that he might have pushed off for a few of those rebounds?
Lakers fans hope not to see Bob Delaney, Joe Crawford and company in Boston again!
Balin Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:16 pm
Wow I guess we all saw a different game. I saw a reason to never watch an NBA game again. Eddie, I can not believe that you and every journalist, player, coach, etc continue to not speak up about the Refs. Tell the truth because all I hear is lies lies lies. Lakers didnt even have a chance last night and in LA the same might happen but in the Lakers favor. This is not real basketball but like SHeed said it is WWE basketball. This has gone long enough and I refuse to watch another NBA game until this is corrected but I guess vegas has the final word. It hard to play a game when whatever you do you will be called on it no matter what. Such professional refs that they didnt see the most obvious travel by Rad. This league is a joke. Note to everybody I am niether a Laker fan or a Celtic fan, I just want to see a fair game and the NBA is not the place.
CL Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Donald Tinsley (or anyone else),
You are correct about the officiating. It was horrendous. However, were you outraged when the Lakers shot 27 more free throws than the Jazz in gm 2 of that series in LA?
That’s not even mentioned the 60 FTA advantage the Lakers enjoyed over the Jazz in that series. Where’s fervor over that, Donald?
These crazy Lakers fans didn’t see any problem w/ that differential, but now…all we hear is that this type of disparity is the worst thing that ever happened to the NBA.
By the way, I agree. The officiating is atrocious in the NBA. Although, know what is worse? Ignorant fans, like Donald, who seem to think the officiating is fine as long as it benefits the Lakers.
Further only an idiot, like Donald, would say that Boston will lose 4 straight to lose the series, especially considering that LA hasn’t been able to beat Boston one single time all year.
They may lose, but not in 6 games.
Triboy16 Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:49 pm
haha you laker fans are such cry babies just like phil jackson. Even kobe isn’t whinning cuz he knows why the refs are not giving any freebies to the lakers
You have 4 guys attacking the basket in pierce, rondo, powe, perkins. You have kg and pj brown cleaning the rebounds like a vacuum with extra effort.
How about the lakers?? about zilch when it comes to driving to the hoop, nada. Kobe is scared to get swatted on national tv. Gasol is so soft like odom. Think about it , who on the lakers are driving and being agressive??
Add to another reason why the aggression is not there and that cuz the celtics defense is that GOOD. Paralyzing defense play and can play in many different ways. They can guard your best player in lebron or kobe by double teaming, guard one on one defense, take away the three, don’t need to double team inside with kg and the enforcer perkins and lastly even in double teams why don’t get burned is cuz they have an amazing weak side help defense, just paralyzing. Start out with premier defenders in rondo, kg, posey. Then you have an underrated defender in pierce(who was in top three in steals earlier in his career), pj brown, even guys like leon powe very aggressive and ready to take a charge. I have not seen such a team defense in a very long time. Celtics are going to sweep the lakers, maybe the celts to let the lakers win one to make this series interesting in any light.
i love hearing all you laker fans cry like phil jackson haha
Kingsblade Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 3:58 pm
Eric,
I agree with your assessment than Allen looks confident guarding Kobe, but the key is to examine the reason why he looks confident. Allen is playing the best defense of his career because the team is playing outstanding team defense. He has confidence because he knows that his team is behind him and will be where they need to be. Good interior defense cannot be underestimated in its effect in perimeter defense.
Jacob,
You stat of the Lakers being 6-0 can be looked at both ways, so it is in no way proof that he should take less shots. You say that they win when he takes less shots, but I say that he takes less shots because his team is playing well without him shooting, so he does not have to shoot. In other words, that 6-0 record has less to do with how many shots Kobe takes than it does with how well the team is playing as a whole. If nobody else is scoring do you really want him only taking 18 shots?
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
The NBA has the best and most consistent referees in all of sports. It’s that simple. Don’t blame the refs for anything. They are doing their job very well, and deserve to be commended. It’s just another thing for people to whine about. But, it’s useless. Balin - if you don’t want to watch, don’t watch. No one cares. We’ll enjoy the Game 3 while you watch THE ASTRONAUT FARMER on HBO2.
Richard Smith III Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
Hey,
Anyone watching the game and not caught up by commentators and coaches aftr game gibberish know that the Celtics are the aggressors and that’s why they are going to the line more. It happened in the Lakers and Spurs series. It’s basketball! Attack the rim and get to the line, shot jumpers and live and die by it. Stop whinnning and bandwagoning and watch the series for yourself.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Kingblade,
Like usual, you’re wrong :). When Kobe is shooting less, he’s playing more efficient ie getting others involved. When all 5 Lakers are in the flow of the game, they are a very tough team to beat.
But, like I stated earlier, Kobe is taking out-of-rhythm shots that turn into stale offense. And, he’s doing it early in the game. In the 4th Quarter, he finally started to move the ball, the team made the extra pass, and shots were falling.
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:11 pm
Here are two things you will never hear:
1. Fortune Teller wins lottery!
2. Any fan of the team that lost saying it was a well officiated game!
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
funny
Jim Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
You Laker fans are unbelievable with the crying.
The final foul tally was 28-21
There are often FT discrepancies like that in games. Lebron outshot the Celtics team in one of the games during that series. The Hawks also had a game with a huge FT discrepancy in their favor in round one.
I’m sorry that you guys haven’t heard of Leon Powe and think he shouldn’t be allowed to have 13 FTs. Fact is, he ate you alive in the paint and drew contact the refs had to call. Meanwhile the Lakers spent the bulk of the game settling for the J, because the Celtics won’t let them get in the paint. Should the officials have created FT opportunities for you even though the bulk of the fould commited by the Celtics were on the perimeter? You mention nothing of the bevy of lousy calls made against the Celtics. Offensive fouls that are straight turnovers never make it into the FT talks, but they can be just as devestating, the Celtics were whistled for a number of these. Leon’s clean strip of the ball that Kenny Mauer made pretend that he saw contact even though he had no vantage point and was wrong.
Ultimately, you lost for the reasons EJ said you lost. I’m sure that is hard for you to accept, because everyone told you that you would cakewalk through this series, but the Celtics are much stronger than the Lakers in key areas. I came to accept this about the Giants beating the Patriots with time, so maybe you can too.
Balin Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
Michael Bennett
You are a joke. The best Refs. Hahahahaha. Wow. Blindness actually has a perk to it. Everybody keep lying to yourself because as Americans that is what you do best. European League here I come.
frank Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
Michael Bennett:
You probably believe that that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq because we have the fairest and most consistent government in the world.
Instead of making an a priori argument that the refs can’t be blamed for anything and that if one mentions the refs that they are whining, one needs to look at the facts and circumstances of the situation at hand.
Does anyone really think that Powe got fouled more than the whole Laker team!? No one believes that. But people seem to want to believe that home court and aggressiveness means that the officials should call more fouls on the visitors.
As I said before, it is true that the home team gets more calls. I specifically remember when Steve Nash was mugged several times on the sidelines during supposed clean steals by Smush Parker at the end of a playoff game a few years ago in LA. There was no way that Nash didn’t get fouled. But the refs held their whistles to “let the players decide”.
To me, there should have been fouls called even though I root for the Lakers. But not blowing the whistle is a time honored tradition in the NBA during the playoffs. What seems particulary troublesome about Sunday’s game is that the refs did not let the players decide the game.
Phil Jackson brought it up because if you objectively think about it, there is no way to rationally explain it, especially since every person, from commentators to fans, believe that the Celtics play a much more physical style of defense than the Lakers. It is quite one thing to not call fouls to let the players decide. It is quite another to call fouls that result in a 30 point scoring differential potential.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
frank - First, what the hell are you talking about? WMDs in Iraq? Who are you? Ali G? That was pre-school, pal. Well done - you’ve proven once again that you’re an idiot.
Second, I live in LA and don’t support either team - I like both equally. I’m a Bulls and LeBron fan. So, I have no bias in this series. I thought both games were great games. I’m having fun watching the Finals whereas you are pathetic and whining because your Lakers lost. And, you’re complaining about the refs. It’s annoying. And, it won’t change anything. Then, why do it? Wah, wah, wah. Boo hoo. That’s all I hear. That’s the sounds of losers (you).
Last, I try and not call people on hear names, but man… it’s tough. I’ve said it before - I call a duck a duck. I call a chicken and chicken. And, I always call an idiot an idiot.
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
Frank,
Phil brought it up because that’s what he does everytime he loses in the play offs. It’s to get into the refs heads for the next game. That is the zen way, grasshopper.
Eddie,
Thanks for the compliment.
francis Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
they didnt really dominate utah, utah bullied them and only lost because they had NO real offensive threat at SG jazz almost forced a game 7 but they didn not have any consistent offense. The celtics have so far a consistent offense and more offensive weapons. I think the lakers take game 3 just because they will be at home and the refs and crowd will be behind them. Game 4 and 5 (if necessary) will be different stories.
Balin Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Michael Bennett
You have not proved anything and I am like you, not a fan of either team and I can say the Lakers got hosed last night. Everybody who wasnt blind last night got hosed also for wasting our time watching fake basketball. WWE = NBA = FACT. Someone please make a new league. I wonder why Eddie wont jump into this conversation? Oh yeah because he doesnt want to lose his job. You should find it fishy that players and coaches get fined for voicing their opinions about the officiating. Sounds like a dictatorship if you ask me.
bobby Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
paralyzing defense that allowed 40 points in the fourth quarter? i dont know about you guys but i know this series is far from over. boston is playing it’s best ball but narrowly finishing off the lakers. maybe officiating was off and maybe not, but regardless i doubt it will be this lop-sided anymore. three games in la will be great for lakers momentum. i guarantee you guys odom, bryant and gasol will be heading to the line at the staples center because everyone plays with more composure at home.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
It’s a private league. It can make any rule it wants. David Stern is fair. If you let players and coaches say whatever they want about the refs after every bad game, it will be open season on the refs.
And, this is coming from an artist who lives and dies by the 1st Amendment. But, this is completely different. It’s a private organization. And, it’s sport. It has nothing to do with dictatorships or The Man. It’s the NBA.
This is a league. There are rules. This isn’t ‘Nam, Smokey.
David Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 6:09 pm
artsit?? Picasso??
Scrappy Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 6:33 pm
Triboy I agree with you whole-heartedly. These excuses by Laker fans are about as weak as their team’s interior play
Jim, thanks for shedding some realism on this whole foul topic.
eddie Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 6:40 pm
Balin
i am not afraid of any conversation. i just strongly disagree with you. NBA officials are the best in pro sports.
do you honestly think they are calculating fouls? the game is too fast.
The Lakers are not putting themselves in position to get fouled. the Celtics are. Simple!
bryan Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
LOOK B4 THE SERIES I PICKED THE CELTICS IN 5…… MOW MY QUESTION IS TO EVERYBODY WIT THE WAY THE CELTS ARE MANHANDLING THE LAKE SHOW…WAT DOES THAT HAVE TO SAY ABOUT the big bad west ???i mean the atl thing where the cenot to mention the tech flts went 7 was a fluke it was their 1st series 2gether not to mention the tech diff shot clocks shit like that bad calls i mean then they play cleveland where they ran into the most dominant player in the game and survived so i wanna know this y r ppl so hyped bout the lakers yea kobe is great the most skilled player in the game but u have to with lebron bcuz hes more dominant so after this is over will the east finmally get its respect and really open up eyes?
bad officiating Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:15 pm
yeah, it’s pretty lopsided officiating by far. Kobe got two quick ticky tack foul, come on, give me a break, if you gonna call that kind of fouls then everybody on the roster will be on foul trouble. and lakers stormed back into the game only so that the ref can blow the whistle and bail Paul Pierce out of that last shot with 22 sec left…. come on, lakers had 3 guys on Pierce, and he’s out of control. if lakers have 3 guys surrounded him, and he’s throwing up a wild shot, the ref should NOT bail him out with a foul call. It’s ridiculous.
LAlakerfan Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
“Here are two things you will never hear:
1. Fortune Teller wins lottery!
2. Any fan of the team that lost saying it was a well officiated game!”
I’m a Laker fan and I thought Game 1 was very evenly officiated. I almost never complain about officiating, but last night was a debacle. Everyone says “The Celtics drove to the basket more, therefore, earned more foul shots.” How many times did the Lakers drive, get fouled and there was no whistle? I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Especially when Sam I Am blatantly grabbed Farmar’s arm on the way to the basket. And just so I don’t seem too biased, I agree that Radmanovic’s dunk should have been a travel. I know contact in the middle of the lane is judgement call, but when a blatant grab and someone taking 5 (yes five, I counted) steps on their way to the basket aren’t called, you have to think something is wrong with the refs.
Curtis Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
To all the Laker fans complaining about the officiating I point to the Utah series where the Lakers averaged over 10ft’s more per game.Game two was especially egregious with a 43-16 ft advantage.I also point to game four vs the Spurs where terrible officiating,the travel on Kobe being missed and the non-call on the final play.The Lakers have been helped enormously by the officiating in this playoffs and are hypocrites to now complain.
ericktmd Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:41 pm
hey eddie great analysis. im a laker guys and we are just playing weak. gotta get more physical baby these are the finals. if the lakers can find their rhythm at home then this could be another miami dallas. havent the suns or bulls called you re the coaching job? you’ d be great!!!
Dame Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:53 pm
Kobe was not fouled on half of his shots. He shot mostly fadeaway jump shots over two people at times. How can you expect the refs to call those? Everytime he did drive, the celtics fouled him before he could attempt a shot. Unlike the Lakers, who fouled Powe to stop him from a layup and force him to the line. Its funny to me to read how you laker fans are actually whining now(43 to 16 free throw against Utah). But its ok you will be going home, so you all can get together with your team, then cry it out when the celtics close you out. I have one question for any Laker fan, How can you honestly expect your team to sweep the celtics 4 straight, after they beat you decisively 4 straight(including the regular season)?
Joel Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
The Lakers committed 7 more team fouls than the Celtics, yet the Celtics got to the line 28 more times. A fool (or spastic homer) would immediately cry conspiracy. But someone who watched the game would see that the Celtics were having their way in the low post.
The Lakers fought hard for paint position in the first quarter and neutralized the Celtics’ rebounding and free throw advantage. So what happened? Well, firstly, the Lakers’ bench was completely dominated by Leon Powe. Before Powe entered the game, the free throw advantage was 3-1. That is, the Celtics had 3 free throws (through almost the entire 1st quarter). The jumpshooting Lakers (their only points in the paint came off fast breaks and missed assignments) had 1. Powe enters the game and the S-O-F-T, slow-rotating Lakers defense was absolutely picked apart by Rajon Rondo. “Confused” Lamar Odom and the Lakers’ scrub squad immediately sent Powe to the line 8 times in the span of 2 minutes. If they weren’t getting crushed defensively - that is, if they were BETWEEN Powe and the basket - they wouldn’t have had to hack him so many times to prevent the easy layups that they were gift-wrapping for him.
Now, to be fair, Kobe got whistled for a pair of moves that Rip Hamilton gets away with every possession of the game. That was straight up bull. But pretty much every other free throw had to do with the Lakers’ soft defense, undersized frontline, and Kobe’s unwillingness to drive to the basket.
Chad Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
Balin,
And what do you have to say about the free throw advantage that LA enjoyed in game 2 of their series w/ the Jazz? They also nearly shot 30 more FTAs. Why weren’t you calling the NBA pro wrestling then? Is it only an outrage if the Lakers get hosed?
Chad Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:30 pm
Balin,
What do you have to say about the free throw advantage that LA enjoyed in game 2 of their series w/ the Jazz? They also nearly shot 30 more FTAs. Why weren’t you calling the NBA pro wrestling then? Is it only an outrage if the Lakers get hosed?
The Truth Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
The problem was that the Lakers weren’t playing significantly less aggressively than the Celtics, and still got hosed. It’s one thing to see teams get the short end of the stick and retreat into a shell. The Lakers, though, continued to go to the rack. Check the shot charts for Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=280608002
Pretty much every shot is in the paint or just outside it - between the two of them, they took 23 shots. 18 of them were within 5 feet of the hoop. They shot 1 foul between them. Look at the comparable shot chart for KG - 2 shots in the paint. 4 free throws. There’s getting hosed, and then there’s inexplicable.
Don’t like ESPN? How about CBS: http://www.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/shotchart/NBA_20080608_LAL@BOS
30 shots by LA were layups or dunks. Boston had 18. Let’s amend that somewhat by noting that the Celtics were the recipients of a number of 2-shot shooting fouls. They were credited with SEVENTEEN shooting fouls - LA got THREE. If we were to give every one of Boston’s 2-shot fouls to the Celtics as a ‘layup’ or ‘dunk’ attempt (they had 14), that gives them 32 shots at the rim. Both of LA’s two-shot attempts were on layups, I believe (one by Fisher, one by Bryant). That gives LA 32 shots at the rim. Gasol and Odom had 16 of them, and received, again, one foul shot for their troubles.
I’ll reiterate simply because it bears repeating: Exactly even at the rim in shot attempts. Seventeen shooting fouls to three. On a night when the two teams took the exact same number of shots at the rim. That’s not bad, that’s borderline absurd. You pretend like the officiating got better in the second half? First half: 19-2, Boston. Second half: 19-8, Boston. Oh good, the Lakers got 6 extra free throws. “Fouls at the end of the game” don’t hold water, because LA only fouled once on Posey - let’s take that out. 17-8 in the second half, despite long stretches that saw LA play more at being matadors than at defenders because they were trying to avoid getting called for fouls!
I don’t expect LA necessarily be -ahead- in free throws. But one expects them to be within, oh, I don’t know, twenty? Fifteen too much to ask, perhaps? You’re calling out Odom - maybe he struggled because every time he tried to go in the lane, he got hammered or called for an offensive foul? The same is true of Gasol, who admittedly allowed the officiating to take him out of the game - but it took him out of the game because it was so egregiously bad that he attempted 11 shots right in the paint amidst a significant amount of contact, and was rewarded with one foul shot.
Lost in all of this is the fact that Kobe actually played really well against the “Kobe stopper” Boston defense. 30 points on 23 shots is plenty efficient (that’s just as efficient as 39 points on 30 shots, which was how he played in game 5 against the Spurs, when everybody couldn’t stop talking about how well he played). He tossed in 8 assists to boot. All this despite being saddled with 3 fouls early, all of which were on the floor. I don’t know that being “MVP” is worth the 20 or so FTAs it seemed to be against Utah, but, really, Kobe gets called for ticky-tack stuff 3x in the first half while Leon Powe spends his first 10 minutes in the game shoving Pau Gasol half into the stanchion every time down the court!
The ‘comeback’ almost buries the story more than it should, because the fact is that the officiating killed the Lakers. It pulled Kobe out of the game early, and as soon as he left the early LA lead evaporated (Lakers were up by 1 when he left, were down by 8 when he returned). When he got his 3rd on yet another nonsense call (I was unaware that being shoved into Paul Pierce by PJ Brown was considered a foul, but hey, I’m not an NBA ref - on the flipside, I can see better than Stevie Wonder, which seems to be something they all lack), the Celtics extended a 7-point lead to 12 at the half. And you’re fooling yourself if you don’t think that the tight officiating (at the Lakers’ end, and ONLY at the Lakers’ end, for the 2nd quarter) didn’t affect how LA played defense for the remainder of the game.
The Truth Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:32 pm
“The problem was that the Lakers weren’t playing significantly less aggressively than the Celtics, and still got hosed. It’s one thing to see teams get the short end of the stick and retreat into a shell. The Lakers, though, continued to go to the rack. Check the shot charts for Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=280608002
Pretty much every shot is in the paint or just outside it - between the two of them, they took 23 shots. 18 of them were within 5 feet of the hoop. They shot 1 foul between them. Look at the comparable shot chart for KG - 2 shots in the paint. 4 free throws. There’s getting hosed, and then there’s inexplicable.
Don’t like ESPN? How about CBS: http://www.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/shotchart/NBA_20080608_LAL@BOS
30 shots by LA were layups or dunks. Boston had 18. Let’s amend that somewhat by noting that the Celtics were the recipients of a number of 2-shot shooting fouls. They were credited with SEVENTEEN shooting fouls - LA got THREE. If we were to give every one of Boston’s 2-shot fouls to the Celtics as a ‘layup’ or ‘dunk’ attempt (they had 14), that gives them 32 shots at the rim. Both of LA’s two-shot attempts were on layups, I believe (one by Fisher, one by Bryant). That gives LA 32 shots at the rim. Gasol and Odom had 16 of them, and received, again, one foul shot for their troubles.
I’ll reiterate simply because it bears repeating: Exactly even at the rim in shot attempts. Seventeen shooting fouls to three. On a night when the two teams took the exact same number of shots at the rim. That’s not bad, that’s borderline absurd. You pretend like the officiating got better in the second half? First half: 19-2, Boston. Second half: 19-8, Boston. Oh good, the Lakers got 6 extra free throws. “Fouls at the end of the game” don’t hold water, because LA only fouled once on Posey - let’s take that out. 17-8 in the second half, despite long stretches that saw LA play more at being matadors than at defenders because they were trying to avoid getting called for fouls!
I don’t expect LA necessarily be -ahead- in free throws. But one expects them to be within, oh, I don’t know, twenty? Fifteen too much to ask, perhaps? You’re calling out Odom - maybe he struggled because every time he tried to go in the lane, he got hammered or called for an offensive foul? The same is true of Gasol, who admittedly allowed the officiating to take him out of the game - but it took him out of the game because it was so egregiously bad that he attempted 11 shots right in the paint amidst a significant amount of contact, and was rewarded with one foul shot.
Lost in all of this is the fact that Kobe actually played really well against the “Kobe stopper” Boston defense. 30 points on 23 shots is plenty efficient (that’s just as efficient as 39 points on 30 shots, which was how he played in game 5 against the Spurs, when everybody couldn’t stop talking about how well he played). He tossed in 8 assists to boot. All this despite being saddled with 3 fouls early, all of which were on the floor. I don’t know that being “MVP” is worth the 20 or so FTAs it seemed to be against Utah, but, really, Kobe gets called for ticky-tack stuff 3x in the first half while Leon Powe spends his first 10 minutes in the game shoving Pau Gasol half into the stanchion every time down the court!
The ‘comeback’ almost buries the story more than it should, because the fact is that the officiating killed the Lakers. It pulled Kobe out of the game early, and as soon as he left the early LA lead evaporated (Lakers were up by 1 when he left, were down by 8 when he returned). When he got his 3rd on yet another nonsense call (I was unaware that being shoved into Paul Pierce by PJ Brown was considered a foul, but hey, I’m not an NBA ref - on the flipside, I can see better than Stevie Wonder, which seems to be something they all lack), the Celtics extended a 7-point lead to 12 at the half. And you’re fooling yourself if you don’t think that the tight officiating (at the Lakers’ end, and ONLY at the Lakers’ end, for the 2nd quarter) didn’t affect how LA played defense for the remainder of the game.”
Jorge Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:33 pm
I totally agree with you guys, the lakers team don´t have anybody attacking the basket, so how are you gonna get calls?? Even kobe isn´t doing a great job on that.
The celtics otherwise have a huge, (really, huge) rebounding edge, except of Turiaf none Laker have a chance aganinst KG, Perkins, PJ brown, Powe, and even Big baby would work the boards last night….look at Rondo, he is a great rebounder for a pg, but I think he got more offensive boards than all the lakers team in the first 2 games, it´s ridiculous…..
And don´t worry, the lakers will see a lot of calls on their favor the next games……
Jesse Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:40 pm
WOW! The Truth just OWNED Eddie and Michael Bennett! Very informative post. Props.
The Truth Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:42 pm
Why did my post get deleted? Because I’m more knowledgeable about the game than eddie?
Dpayne Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 8:52 pm
well for those who dont know. leon powe is a beast. i played against him in high school and i seen him at cal b4 the injuries. so to see him come out and do what he did against the lakers was not suprising. and im a laker fan… now to the refs, there were some calls that were questionable but thats what happens when you’re at home. the lakers do need to man up and fight back or something because they are playing extremely soft maybe softer than the kings in there hay day. ronny turiaf need more pt. and to the guy who said portland is going to give the lakers trouble next. wtf? did you forget they dont have their whole team together rite. portland isnt touching the lakers next sorry champ. pau gasol man i never realized how soft he really was. some1 get that man on a football field or something. Phil always complains about the refs. yall acting like this is something new he did it in 2000, 2001, 2002 aint nothin new.
Kingsblade Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 9:27 pm
Michael Bennett,
As usual you take a point out of context and think you are clever for it.
My point was that his little statistical gem is not evidence of anything. Kobe shooting too much CAN have the effect you noted, but there have also been a number of games where Kobe has tried to get others involved and they just play poorly. Those games do not fit into the stats you guys are using because when his teamates are not playing well he is forced to shoot more often.
The funny part about my taking this side in this particular discussion is the fact that Kobe is one of my least favorite players in the league (right after all of the Spurs besides Finley). However even I have to back off from suggesting that every single game where he takes a lot of shots is due to selfishness, and it is even harder to make the claim that every game where the other Lakers play poorly is because of it.
You are probably going to reply by saying that you said no such thing, but we both know you implied it. There is obviously more than one reason why Kobe might take more than 20 shots in a game, and not all of them are bad.
Balin,
“WWE = NBA = FACT”
This does not make any sense. It is not even a valid statement, let alone a sound one. Sorry but if you want this to say what I think you want it to say then it should look more like:
(WWE + NBA) = FACT
When you are going to come on here making over the top statements you should at least have your statement make sense.
Joel Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 9:42 pm
There are some crazy ass Lakers fans on here. Where were the conspiracy theorists when the Lakers had a 43-16 free throw advantage in game 2 against the Jazz?
I guess Napa isn’t the wine capital of California anymore.
Jacob Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:00 pm
frank is blaming everyone but his own team…hes like the father whos kid has done no wrong…
kingsblade,
did you miss this line “now granted if no one is stepping up then he has to shoot 100 times.”
yea i know basketball here bud. dont be so quick to attack people. know i know how eddie feels on these blogs when people read one line and go attacking without finishing the complete thought
lakers = frauds.
Joel Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:26 pm
Eddie, props for being honest with people.
Lakers fans have been quick to forget the Barry non-call and game 2 against the Jazz. The Lakers enjoyed a huge free throw advantage in that game, and while home cooking played a role, a big part of that was Kobe taking it aggressively to the basket (and the Jazz being a horribly overrated defensive team).
Boston had the best defense in the league, and the runner-ups weren’t even close. The Celtics generated the highest turnovers per possession and the lowest opponent eFG%. They were also one of the better rebounding teams in the league, and the Lakers are without their best rebounder. Lastly, if that wasn’t enough, the regular season and two playoff matchups have shown that Thibideau’s defense is perfectly capable of busting up the triangle. That’s part of Kobe’s iso-fetish, but a lot of that is on the man himself.
Joel Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:27 pm
Eddie, props for being honest with people.
Lakers fans have been quick to forget the Barry non-call and game 2 against the Jazz. The Lakers enjoyed a huge free throw advantage in that game, and while home cooking played a role, a big part of that was Kobe taking it aggressively to the basket (and the Jazz being a horribly overrated defensive team).
Boston had the best defense in the league, and the runner-ups weren’t even close. The Celtics generated the highest turnovers per possession and the lowest opponent eFG%. They were also one of the better rebounding teams in the league, and the Lakers are without their best rebounder. Lastly, if that wasn’t enough, the regular season and two playoff matchups have shown that Thibideau’s defense is perfectly capable of busting up the triangle. That’s part of Kobe’s iso-fetish, but a lot of that is on the man himself.
Anyhow, the Lakers are big favorites to win game 3, as they should be. Historical precedent is in their favor. But if they lose, then honestly, they have no business complaining.
Luke Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
As a non fan of either the lakers or celtics, I must say I did have an issue with the way this game was called. I find the arguments both ways quite funny. While the lakers did appear to play a weak game. If you look at the stats for the game the lakers did drive to the lane or have attempts in the lane more than the celtics did.
The other painful point is that whether anyone likes it or not Kobe is the MVP of the league and that in the past has always afforded the star a little bit of leeway from the refs. If you look back at the MVPs for the past 5 years at least that have made it deep into the play offs you would never see such a disparity between them and Kobe.
While being a lowly Bulls fan without much vested interest in this series, last nights game was very disheartening since I am a fan of basketball in general the reffing of last nights game was pretty awful.
I just hope a balance is struck as the series moves forward because this series does have the players involved to make for an epic battle if the refs would just swallow their whistles a little bit allow for some good old fashioned hand checking and solid screens like the old lakers celtics battles of the 80s
Brand Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:17 pm
I love how the conspiracy theories come out after every event. Last year, we had to listen to absurd theories about how the nba was rigged, thus manufacturing a small market San Antonio win in a 4 game sweep over LeBron and the small market Cavs. David Stern was Evil for suspending two guys who ran on the court during a fight… Doneghy was a conspirator For the Spurs, but Crawford was a conspirator Against the Spurs… I guess someone forgot to take notes at the Evil Conspiracy Meeting and the refs got confused about what the conspiracy actually was, which apparently was a conspiracy masterminded by Stern to earn the NBA the smallest possible profit in the finals…
The Truth Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
Eddie, still no reply to my post? I thought it was simple! Lakers weren’t being aggressive, right? Oh wait, they had more shots in the paint but went to the FT line 20 less times.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 9, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
How about (Kingsblade + Balin) = moron?
I’m kidding (about you, Kingsblade - I do think Balin is a moron). Kingsblade, I just think that right now, in the Finals, Kobe’s job is to get everyone not only involved, but playing well. So, that means drive and dish, the extra pass, instilling confidence. I don’t think he’s doing that. I know that you were calling out his equation. Yes. I get it. But, I think that it does hold some water. I believe the Lakers will win if Kobe is efficient. And, I believe he’s more of the time efficient when shooting around 15-18 times - he can still get 30 pts, he just has to get them the efficient way (free throws, in the paint).
shane Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 12:49 am
Gasol was 6 for 6 early in the game.
Why weren’tt the lakers dumping in to him more earlier in the game, when someones hot, give them the ball.
arthur Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 12:55 am
As long as the Lakers allow Rondo to deliver smoothly to the Big 3 at their relative sweet spots, they will never be able to beat the Celtics. Rondo is atheletic and quick, but he’s no where close to a NBA Final starting point guard caliber of player…in Game 1 he got trapped for 2 times, and he turned it over right away. I say put Kobe on him and let old Fisher do the chase around with Ray Allen.
Ed Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 1:00 am
LA had their chances and Boston should feel happy to have won the last two games on their home court. Refs are not going to be perfect and LA should not complain. Boston matches up well with LA. Gasol is long and active, but KG can match that and give him problems. They have multiple defenders to throw at Kobe. The Spurs played D well, but they lacked the O and the surprise has been the bench. LA had dominant bench play against the Spurs. Boston’s bench (PJ Brown gives another person to guard Gasol) and PP…that is the match up that bothers LA. No one can guard him except KB and they have to save that match up for late in the game. The shift back to LA should help their bench and they should get some calls. I do not see a sweep happening.
Kingsblade Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 1:17 am
Jacob,
Since when did it become an ‘attack’ to disagree with someone? Are you really taking a difference of opinion personally?
You probably aren’t married are you.
Did I ‘disrespect’ you too? Sorry if your feelings got hurt from the vicious onslaught where I doubted the usefulness of your statistic. Next thing you know I might make a joke about your mother, after which I might move on to cancer and aids. I guess that’s why they call disagreements ‘gateway attacks.’
Let me make 2 counter statements (you will likely consider these attacks as well, but there is nothing to be done about that at this point)
1. I never said you were wrong in your assessment, only that the statistic you gave was pointless.
2. As per your disgust at the fact that I ‘attacked’ you without addressing your complete thought: In what part of my statement did I say that you do not know basketball? You are upset, claiming that I ignored part of your thought, yet you are responding angrily to things I never said!
Now, that being said….Is it just me, or is someone who says, “I know basketball here bud,” less likely to actually know what they are talking about?
Why don’t you settle down, relax, and try not to take a simple difference of opinion as some sort of personal slight. You’ll live longer without the stress or the sunrise duels that come from regularly having to defend your honor.
Zero Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 4:34 am
I have to disagree with the 3-0 prediction. You see the 41 point quarter on the road? Even tho they couldn’t get the W, they can carry the momentum back to L.A. No team had won the series after down by 0-3, and the lakers know they have their back on the wall. I just can’t see them playing with this ugly concentration again in Game 3. The celtics, on the other hand, have some uncertainties (Pierce’s knee, Ray Allen’s shooting consistancy throughout the playoffs, inconsistancy of bench play, their road record throughout the playoffs etc…. ) With the next three straight games at L.A. and with some luck, the lakers might even grab a 3-2 lead. (Never think the 2-3-2 structure is a fair call.)
In regard to the free throws totals. I don’t think anyone complained when the lakers had a 43-16 free throw advantage against the jazz in game 1, when the jazz lost by 10. No offense to anyone, but a win is a win. Please show your classiness and show your respect for the game.
My Prediction: Lakers in 7
jacob Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 7:16 am
kingsblade I was pointing out that I wrote and understood ur point before u told me…thats all don’t need to hear u repeat what I said…which was if his team isn’t stepping up then he must do whatever he has too
point is lakers suck and I lost a lot of respect for everyone on that team for the way they cry and complain…. the celtics did it ina few games and lost because they were more concerned wit arguin then playin basketball
Paul Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 7:27 am
Let’s call Brent Barry and see how he feels about the free throw shooting. Gasol and Odom are baby back b**ches and our frontline is eating their lunch. The Lakers hit 7 threes in the 4th to make it a close game, think that will happen again?
Beez Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 7:48 am
this is such a joke this nba it all turned commercial thank to Michael Jordan befor that it was all sweat and tears these players are overrated most of them . The refs are controlled by the Godfather (David Stern) and trust me Tim Donaghy wasn’t the only one doing that you can’t cover up Las Vegas in this whole thing . It’s big business and it’s bigger than Kobe KG or Paul Pierce. The funny thing is you have to sit and listen to wahed up bums like John Barry or Tim Legler talk about the game they wish they could have played in still. Rasheed Wallace hit it on the nose this is not basketball. This is america for you teach your kids how to flop instead of really playing ball. And please can we have some young refs instead of these 75 year old guys who are in with the Godfather (David Stern)
Beez Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 7:56 am
Eddie it’s a shame to know that nobody has enough guts to speak the truth in this country the minute they do they get railroaded. They say Kobe is the heir apparent to Mj well he doesn’t get calls like him. Not at all. The funny thing is after Kobe’s second foul in game 2 Marc Jackson even said how can you call a foul like this and this point of the game a touch foul when ray allen pushes off to get free all day because he doesn’t have enough game to free himself up. It really came to my attention when in the Utah series Hubie Brown pointed out how Derek Fisher was shutting down Deron Williams because he played with them and knew the offense then the following two games in Utah Derek Fisher had 2 fouls the first 4 minutes in the next two games . So come on now people smell the coffee it’s not the same game anymore
kb Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 8:16 am
Eddie is SO RIGHT!!! the lakers are SOFT. it is sad that your most intimidating players are in your back court… kobe/fisher! turiaf is very physical, but phil would rather play LUKE WALTON… i dont cuss, but if i did i would say something like.. what the ‘f*ck is that all about?’ this guy has no clue offensively or defensivley. in the regular season he is cool and against the nuggets in the first round but after that it is bench time for walton!!! he is NOT READY FOR this level of the season!!! the lakers are clearly the better team, but it all starts with KOBE. this guy is being said to be as GOOD AS JORDAN… lets see… talent wise yes and competive wise yes, but mentally… HELL NO… IQ … HELL NO… leadership… HELL NO. Jordan did all these things and did them the best, that is what makes him… THE BEST. in my opinion, kobe isn’t even the best player in the leauge… lebron is and you can even make a case for paul! oh, and one more point… in the fourth quarter of game 2 everytime kobe make the extra pass they scored… i am not exaggerating… EVERY TIME!!! now you would think that something would click in the guys head to stop taking contested jumpers when people are WIDE OPEN… but that is why he will not win a championship or become better than Jordan until he figures that out… it is quite strange to me taht Magic Johnson is letting him do these things knowing what he needs to be a 5 or 6 time NBA champ. holla at me azzman555@yahoo
Porky Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 8:21 am
Eddie- good comments. My Celts are performing just as I predicted here in this forum. Good defense is beating good offense. The only reason Lakers had that 4thQ run is because Celts let down on defense, thinking it was already a won game. They will not do that anymore. I still predict Celts in 5.
Be there.
kb Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 8:37 am
stop complaining about the refs!!! if you notice, teams taht play as a team get the most calls, why… cuz teams that play collectively move around more on offense and defense and it is harder to see fouls and violations being called. Utah and spurs get all kinds of calls from the refs… it is not cuz they are ‘cheating’ for these teams, they just play as a team and they are all moving around on offense and defense and it is harder for the refs to see violations. the celtics are doing this same thing on both ends… but the lakers ARE NOT. on offense kobe has it up top or gasol on block and they just hold the ball and every one else stands there… it isn’t hard to see a violation… on defense the lakers dont play hard as a team… you have gasol, walton, farmar, odom playing non aggressive defense and kobe in hustling and they call him for a foul… why? everyone else is not even touching their guy and kobe in playing physical ball denile so it looks like kobe is fouling, but if all of them played like this on every possession it wouldn’t look like one player is being overly aggressive or fouling. that is why it is important for turiaf to play with fisher and kobe… they are the only ones who actually try to intimidate on the defensive end… when they are out there together less fouls would be called cuz they all play hard and it doesn’t look like ONE PERSON is overly aggressive. i know this sounds crazy but i would put in dj mgenga in the game more too. he is active. Fisher, Vujacich, Kobe, Turiaf, Mgenga. I know this is a crazy line up but defensively this is your best unit AND you can score on the other end with ball movement… not to mention the offensive rebounding with dj and turiaf. azzman555@yahoo
kb Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 8:51 am
i will also say they because of the number of games boston has played and the old bench they have, games 3, 4, 5,6,7 will have a great effect on boston as a hole… whether they win or not is another story, but we will see a less effective celtic team in the next 5 games. And if the series goes to 7 games it would be very hard for the celtics to PHYSICALLY play at a high level due to all the wear and tear… but if it does go 7 and they win, you would have to mention them as one of the most ‘mentally’ tough teams to win a Finals series. azzman555@yahoo
David Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 9:37 am
Kingsblade,
Great line about being married. Wish I woulda said it. Hey, I’m a SPurs fan and I don’t think you HATE me, do you?
Luke,
I just couldn’t believe your garbage. You claim the officiating was bad because Kobe didn’t receive preferential treatment as the MVP?? That’s like my 2 boys fighting over 2 pieces of cake. They each want theirs exactly the same, only bigger than the other!!
eddie Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:00 am
Truth
good post, but just because they took shots in the paint do not mean they were agressive attempts.
what you also are forgetting is that they are shooting over two or three bodies standing in their way.
they have not been agressive simple fact. they will get calls tonight if they are aggressive.
eddie Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Truth
i keep hearing things about posts being deleted. not on me.
good to know you are more knowledegable than i.
Kingsblade Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:20 am
David,
Why are you attacking me like this?
As a wise man once told me, “you don’t hate the person, you just hate who they cheer for.” I think it is possible for good people to like bad teams.
LAlakerfan Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:36 am
I love how the writers here actually read the comments. Props to one of the best b-ball sites on the interwebs.
David Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:46 am
Kingsblade,
Sorry, I forgot the smiley face when I wrote that
Tonight’s game is going to be a blast. By the way, my 6-year old has been a staunch Celtics fan since day 1.
Filthyrich Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
Michael Bennet your a straight punk, Im not a fan of either team but, the officiating was terrible. All th refs should be investigated. The Celtics are a horrible team the big three arent too far frm the time theyll need to file for social security, I mean common they went 7 games against the HAWKS? HAHAHA what a great team without the refs thew Celtics wouldnt of won eaithergame. The Lakers only dwnfall is they let the crappy officiating get to them. All they had to do was stay poised do not get excited and run the offense. Game 2 4th quarter once the refs remembered to use their whistles the Lakers knocked a 24 point lead to 2. Im slowly becoming a Laker fan because of all the haters. Im sorry but the real crybabies are the Celtics they get calls ALL NIGHT LONG and they still cry when one call doesnt go there way. PUNKS Lakers in 6
Jax Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
The Lakers lost because they are playing soft. The Celtics are getting the calls because they are playing hard, and when you play hard, you get rewarded; as we could see from the 4th quarter Laker’s run - they switched the aggressive button on and so they were rewarded.
I think that the Lakers would make one major adjustment, force Rondo to take open jumpers, and if Rondo knocks them down, Celts win, if he doesn’t LA wins Game 3.
Jax Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 12:17 pm
Laker defense need to step up, i remembered one play in the 4th quarter made by Leon Powe. He drove from mid court to the hoop and slammed it home - he was alone and there were around 4 Laker around him, nobody even bothered to at least foul him?!?
kb Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 1:34 pm
jax you have a good point, you will never win a championship letting a powerforward go coast to coast on you and dunk. if that was the bulls or the spurs powe wouldv’e been HACKED. the lakers all looked and then NO ONE WAS CHEWED OUT!!! there should have been a fight amongst the lakers players after a play like that. someone shouldve got off the bench and got in one of the those 4 players faces. kobe didn’t do taht, but he will yell and cuss if you dont pass him the ball or finish one of his few dime bags. if i was LA i would try to trade kobe and farmar for LEBRON. you talk about championshipsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. holla azzman555@yahoo
kb Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
Lakers New Starting 5
Fisher, Vujacic, Lebron, Gasol, Bynum
Bench
Odom (6th man), Turiaf, Radmonovic, Ariza, Walton… snatch chris duhon & jr smith in free agency
Eddie get me a job in the front office somewhere azzman555@yahoo
lou Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
seriously what is the big deal. the celtics have been amazing at home for the entire season, and post-season. surprise surprise, they won at home. let’s see how they do in LA before passing judgement and jumping on the celtics bandwagon.
Jacob Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
kb,
why would cleveland do a kobe for lebron trade? lebron does more (rebounds and assists) than kobe and is 7 years younger…
please no one give you a job in basketball
Jacob Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
kingsblade,
i was just pointing out that i said that if kobes team isn’t playing well then he needs to shoot a hundred times.
olddawg Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 6:47 pm
Surely, everyone but the Lakers (and fans) remembers the old saw, “Never foul a jump shooter.” The Lakers did, Boston didn’t. And, the Lakers took plenty of jump shots despite memphis’ gift of a soft big.
Luka Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
Celtics are playing suffocating defense. The Celtics are more phsyical in the post than the Lakers. The Celtics have more veteran leadership.
Lakers miss Andrew Bynum. Their role players are one-dimensional shooters. Pau Gasol is not being phsyical in the paint.
Boston will win the series in 5 maybe 6 games. I do believe Lakers will put up a fight in game 3.
Michael Bennett Said,
June 10, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
Kobe shot 12-20 FG. He got to the free throw line 18 times. THIS is how the Lakers will win. Both Gasol and Odom played horribly on the offensive end.
So, Jacob, you’re wrong. Kobe’s best when he plays efficiently… like I’ve said a million times.
Kingsblade Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 12:06 am
That depends I suppose if you are talking about how many he put up, or how many are recorded in the boxscore, or how he gets his points. He put up 29 shots in game one, 27 in game 2, and 29 again tonight.
Your definition works because you said that he needs to SCORE more efficiently.
Other people on here are claiming that he needs to pass more and shoot less to involve his teamates in order to be efficient. This obviously was not the case tonight, even though nobody would doubt that he was much more effective.
In games one and two he had 6 and 8 assists, and tonight only 1, yet it was obviously his best game of the series so far.
His effectiveness tonight had little to do with passing the ball or involving others, it had to do with putting his head down and trying to get to the rim, yet what do you know, the Lakers won the game, even though he put the ball up just as often as the previous games and passed it even less.
jmn Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 2:42 am
He put up 20 shots in Game 3…. not 29. I think the low assist total had a lot to do with the terrible shooting games from Pau, Lamar, Fisher etc. The only real flaw in Kobe’s game tonight was his free throw shooting
kb Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 8:46 am
the lakers played aggressive from start to finish, pierce was 2-12, garnett was 6-21, and rondo got hurt, the huge freethrow advantage and the lakers just did enough to win; the lakers are in trouble… BIG trouble.
mr jacobs you are right, i know that trade would never go down, but if it could, id pull the trigger and pull it fast… i would even throw in kobe with odom for lebron…
kb Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 9:07 am
let me throw in another thing, people always talk about how effective kobe is… if he aint hitting, what else is he doing to get the team a W… NOTHING!!! game 2 he did nothing to get the lakers a win when he was broke. Kg was broke last night but he shut down gasol. when rondo is broke, he gets you steals and assists. KOBE IS THE MOST OVERATTED SUPERSTAR OF THE NEW MILLINEUM!!! When kobe’s athletic ability fades… well see that he is just as dominate as shaq is now… NOT! only GREAT players are still great after the youth leaves. Magic, Bird, Kareem, Moses, Doc and Jordan.
Help me out with this, how in the world can you have a guy like Lamar Odom on your team (6′10, quick, fast, rebounds, defends and creates) and you not be able to make him better?!!! they have been together for 3 years plus and he still looks the same as he did the first year they played. pippen got better under mike. parker/ginobli got better too under duncan. now what about kobe? is odom better… NOPE- whose fault is it… kobe’s!!! mike let pippen handle the ball and mike played off pip… he did this to improve pip. kobe doesn’t let lamar do this… he dominates teh ball while odom stands on the wing ready to take a 3 point when he should be setting up others… oh, maybe that is why they won last night… didn’t he set up vujicic in the corner with the dager? EDDIE GIVE ME THAT FRONT OFFICE JOB!
AZZMAN555@YAHOO
Kingsblade Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 11:33 am
jmn,
“He put up 20 shots in Game 3…. not 29″
I see that reading comprehension is not your strong point. Let me see if I can make it more clear for you. I specified that I was talking about the number of times he attempted to shoot, not the number of times recoreded statistically. Maybe you are not aware of this, but if you are fouled in the act of shooting the attempt is not recorded in the boxscore, or did you really think that Kobe never missed unless he was fouled?
I will admit to a mistake in the number 29 though. I the proper number is 28 because he got fouled on the floor once in a bonus situation which I forgot about.
Shall we take a look to make sure you understand?
He was 12-20 on the floor and 11-18 from the line. 2 foul shots were on the bonus, so that leaves 16. Since you get 2 shots each time that means he attempted 8 shots while being fouled. (There were no 3-point plays to account for) What does 20+8 come to? You got it….28. More than he shot in game 2. (I made a mistake there too…the number of shots he took in game 2 was only 26)
Do you understand yet or should I simplify even more? I really hate having to explain things like this. It should have been clear enough the first time.
I was comparing the TOTAL shots put up by Kobe in each game, not the number that comes up in the boxscore. His shooting percentage was higher only because more fouls were called. That can be looked at in 2 ways, either the refs simply called more, as Kobe would have everyone believe, or he was more agressive getting to the basket and drawing more fouls.
As for the assist number…it was pretty obvious that Kobe was looking to score instead of pass last night if you watched the game. He was basically putting his head down and trying to bull his way to the rim. It is true that those guys stunk, but one of the reasons they stunk was the fact that Kobe was not looking to get them shots as he had in past games. It isn’t the only reason they played poorly, but it was definitely a factor.
jmn Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Kingsblade,
“That depends I suppose if you are talking about how many he put up, or how many are recorded in the boxscore, or how he gets his points. He put up 29 shots in game one, 27 in game 2, and 29 again tonight.”
Don’t worry about my reading comprehension buddy. You need to learn how to write clearly.
Going to what you actually mean - are you kidding me??! There are way too many variables involved to include the shots that a player was fouled on in his shooting percentage.
For example - if fouls are being called frequently then the player will adjust his game as such in order to get to the free throw line. Ever heard of drawing a foul to get to the line? How are you going to adjust to that factor in your bogus stat?
- What about when a player is hacked in the lane - you want to include that in their shot attempts too?
Why penalise a player on his shooting percentage when the opposing team makes the mistake of fouling him on his shot.
Since your point was about Kobe’s efficiency - what is considered the benchmark for efficiency now? Now that you brought in this bogus stat which includes free throw attempts in a players field goal attempts, you will have to go back and revise the same stat for every great player in order to then compare it to Bryant and ONLY THEN will you be able to comment on his efficiency. If Jordan is the benchmark for efficiency in a great player, then his field goal attempts and percentage will have to be revised totally.
Until then, perhaps you should stick to the accepted method of calculation because your stat is without context and therefore has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
As to his assists total - Vlade played only 12 mins and was 1-4 from the field, Odom played only 28 mins and was 2-9, and Fisher played 28 mins for 1-6. Gasol was the only other starter to play near to 40 mins but he was 3-9. They stunk it up!! So Kobe had to be more aggressive, but yet he took only 20 shots.
36 points on 20 shots - pretty damn efficient to me!
frank Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
Does anyone think that the Celtics played softer last night and that is why Kobe shot more free throws in the first five minutes last night than he did the whole game on Sunday?
Was it soft when Kevin Garnett drove to the hoop on several occasions and was hacked by the Lakers with no call? Weren’t Pierce and Rondo not slashing to the basket just as they had done in Boston?
Can we really argue that the Lakers played more aggresively? One could say Kobe did, but isn’t it possible that the reason that he was taking it to the rim more was because at Home he felt that he could get a foul call? I don’t think Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Vlad Rad could have been any softer on the offensive end yet the final free throw count was 34 for the Lakers and 22 for Boston.
It is incredibily disingenuous to suggest that one team’s aggressiveness can account for 38 free throws for Boston and 10 for the Lakers in game two and 22 free throws for Boston and 34 for the Lakers in Game three. The facts on the ground don’t bear this discrepancy out, at all. Yet this appears to be the official party line.
Boston found out that it is tough to shoot a good percentage if you are getting fouled on your attempts.
I would like to to enjoy the Laker win, but when I was watching the game, the thought of Roller Derby kept popping into my head. I’m showing my age, but the home team always won in Roller Derby and it was scripted much like professional wrestling.
In light of what is going on with Tim Donaghy, for the integrity of the sport, there needs to be some oversight outside of the league office over the officials.
I have been a basketball fan for 40 years. The consensus on officiating until about the mid 1990’s was that in the playoffs, there were no boys allowed, men only, and the players not the officials would determine the outcomes of games. This meant that many fouls that would have been called in the regular season were not called in the playoffs. It would be interesting for someone like “The Truth” to go back and look back historically on the number of fouls called in different NBA eras and how the officiating today compares.
Joel Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
A couple of things happened last night:
Doc/Thibideau got cute with the defensive assignments, putting Rondo on Kobe in the first quarter. Kobe easily overpowered the undersized Rondo and got to the paint with aggressive play. The Lakers built a big free throw advantage early with Kobe getting that penetration.
Then the Celtics went back to what worked for them, defensively, putting Ray Allen (and occasionally Posey) on Kobe and forcing him to take contested jumpers. Kobe was feeling it last night, so he made those shots.
Pierce was just terrible, a half step behind on his rotations and not playing with awareness on offense. Thats why he got into foul trouble. Garnett was freeing up on the pick and pop but wasn’t getting the 18-footers to fall. The Lakers stopped honoring Rondo’s jump shot which allowed the help (Kobe typically) to hassle guys coming off of screens.
The officials allowed the paint play to get more physical, which I’m fine with, and that cut down the Celtics’ trips to the line. Overall, the officiating wasn’t perfect, but it was certainly fair, especially given the relentless whinging of the Lakers (even after this game). And frankly, it was (and is) pathetic. Have some pride, give some credit to the opponent, and sack up. That’s exactly what Doc Rivers did in his postgame conference… Maybe a lesson can be learned here (stop whining, you big babies!)
Kingsblade Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 7:29 pm
jmn,
You are responding by claiming perfect reading comprehension while completely misinterpreting EVERYTHING I said, and blaming it on me. A big part of my job is to write clearly so I ought to have some ability. That in combination with the fact that YOU are the only one here misunderstanding my statement should suggest that you ARE lacking in reading comprehension.
Where to begin:
You seem under the impression that I was denying his efficiency, yet only an imbecile would come up with that understanding, since I stated at least 3 times that he was indeed efficient.
You fail to comprehend my point, and are aguing against things I never even came close to implying, let alone anything I might have actually said.
My entire argument has nothing to do with my whether or not Kobe was efficient, it has to do with how much he involved his teamates, and if that has anything to do with his efficiency. Any fool who watched the game can see that he involved them less than in the two previous games, but was much much more effective. I never said he was less efficient, I said that he did not attempt to score any less. My statement about his shooting percentage is not related to anything other than the fact that he took just as many shots. How is that ‘penalizing’ him? The reason that shots taken when a player is fouled are not counted is basically that it would be an innacurate portrayal of his real shooting for the game, but totalingl them all to determine how often a particular player looks to score is perfectly legitimate since it reflect a percentage of a teams posessions.
“What about when a player is hacked in the lane - you want to include that in their shot attempts too?”
Of course, when examining the aspects of the game which I am looking at. I am not claiming that a miss in that situation should affect his shooting percentage, I AM SUGGESTING THAT HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO SCORE, WHICH MEANS HE WAS NOT INVOLVING TEAMATES.
Bogus stat? I fail to see how stating the number of times a person actually shot the ball at the basket is bogus. All of the variables you talk about certainly exist, but they do not matter in the least towards my point.
How does the number of times a person attempted to shoot the ball have no context? Either they shoot it, or they attempt to shoot but are fouled. Of course a player will adjust his game, and or course the refs will matter, but it does not change the percentage of possessions that Kobe looks to score.
Are you claiming that when Kobe drives full steam to the basket and is fouled putting up a layup that he might not have actually trying to score?
One could reasonably argue that the only reason Kobe was more efficient in game 3 than game 2 was the refs. Is this my position? No, but when you consider that he attempted to score two times more than in game 2 and only made one more shot from the field the obvious difference was the number of free throws attempted. If 5 of those shots which were called fouls were not called he would have had 10 less free throw, and he would have been 12 for 25 instead. Not quite as efficient is it?
Now personally, while I think the refs account for part of it, I think that Kobe’s decision to forget his teamates and put his head down driving to the rim had even more to do with it. Thus AS I ALREADY SAID…Kobe had a good efficient game.
It is just irritating when someone takes something I said and then argues something completely unrelated. You have masterfully given me a good idea of what a kindergarten teacher faces every day.
I still can’t believe you read my post and then started into me for doubting his efficency after in my initial post I explicitly stated that he scored very efficiently.
Let me state it for you one last time:
My position, as previously stated and comprehended by everyone else, is that Kobe scored more efficiently, but that his efficiency in game 3 was independant of how often he looked to score or how much he involved his teamates. Stop claiming that I was trying ot argue more than that, because I was not, no matter how much you seem to wish I was.
As to assists again….there were 17 laker assists and only 3 on Kobe’s baskets. That means, as bad as some guys played there were still baskets made. Radmanovic played limited minutes in games 1 and 2 as well. Fisher, while a decent shooter, has never been relied upon to score. Odom sucked in games 1 and 2 as well, so that is also irrelevant. Gasol sucked, true, but it is not fair to make that argument while ignoring the great game by Vujacic which offset it. I also submit that Gasol did not see many of his usual looks because Kobe was looking to score more. He only had one assist on 14 baskets by other players, not a great percentage for a guys who touches the ball on almost every posession and whose efficiency, according to some people, is based on his ball distribution. (In case you missed it, this is part of my reasoning for claiming he was efficient even though he was not really distributing or shooting less)
This is my last response to you. Normally I enjoy a good long argument, a fact to which many on here can attest, but you do not even bother trying to understand what has been written, and you argue against positions you seem to have invented rather than anything I actually said. There is no point to carrying on such an argument. My 3 year old daughter has more pointed logic than you. I am further irritated at the fact that you clearly did misunderstood, as you pointed it out yourself, yet still got defensive and continued to argue. Bah. Useless. Why do I bother?
Kingsblade Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
Sorry about the essay everyone. He irritated me with his ignorance.
David Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
Kingsblade,
I have a 4 year old and a 6 year old (not to mention a wife) — I know where you’re coming from, man.
Kingsblade Said,
June 11, 2008 @ 9:15 pm
heh…I have a 3 year old and a 2 week old
:)
jmn Said,
June 12, 2008 @ 6:26 am
Kingsblade,
Lol!! I don’t know if you’re arrogant, insecure or just plain DUH! Quit trying to talk down from some self-imposed pedestal - you are a nobody. Full stop. Don’t pretend (even to yourself) that you’re some sort of authority on basketball.
Firstly, don’t make up things to prove a point. I said “Don’t worry about my reading comprehension”, nowhere did I mention “PERFECT” reading comprehension. I don’t have it and you don’t have it.
“Your definition works because you said that he needs to SCORE more efficiently.
Other people on here are claiming that he needs to pass more and shoot less to involve his teamates in order to be efficient. This obviously was not the case tonight, even though nobody would doubt that he was much more effective.”
This was half of your first post and it talks about - EFFICIENCY!
Let me spell things out for you in the simplest way I can since you seem to be finding it very tough.
1. You spoke about efficiency in Kobe’s game.
2. You mentioned field goal shooting in talking about efficiency. (yes I know you spoke about other things too, but I’m focusing on this)
3. You included FREE THROW attempts as FIELD GOAL attempts in order to analyse Kobe’s efficiency.
I think that is pretty simple even for you to understand. I hope you don’t now come up with some cock reason to deny that.
Next - Based on points 1, 2 and 3 above I pointed out that you cannot use the free throws = field goals theory to figure out efficiency, since efficiency is sport-related and only makes true sense when benchmarked against the efficienies of the other players (both past and present) in the NBA.
“You seem under the impression that I was denying his efficiency..”
Nope, another thing you just made up in your mind. I am not under that impression, and nowhere did i say so. I said you cannot base an efficiency analysis on a bogus stat.
Agree with it or not - fine no problem. Stop pretending to yourself that I can’t understand you. Trust me, you’re not very difficult to understand.
And I got defensive?? Please. I wrote one sentence about Kobe taking 20 field goal attempts (which I misunderstood from your post) and instead of just pointing it out simply, you decided to write an essay about how exasperated you are with all the imbeciles in the world who cannot comprehend what you say. Get over yourself.
A fool who knows he’s a fool is a fool no longer. A fool who thinks himself smart……. well, you get where I’m going with that I hope.
This is my last response to you.
Maybe you should get your 3 year old to read this to you.
jmn Said,
June 12, 2008 @ 6:34 am
David,
“Kingsblade,
I have a 4 year old and a 6 year old (not to mention a wife) — I know where you’re coming from, man.”
I can see from several instances in this blog that you like kissing kingsblade’s ass. But that’s cool.. whatever turns you on.
It’s really sad though that you compare your wife to a 4 and 6 year old.
David Said,
June 12, 2008 @ 10:09 am
jmn,
I know this blog is pretty much finished, and I wanted to say:
I don’t kiss anybody’s ass. Kingsblade seems like a nice guy — if you have a problem then YOU deal with it. There is more to life than basketball.
Also, I NEVER compared my wife to my kids. If you can’t understand the 2 lines that I wrote, then you really are an idiot.
Kingsblade Said,
June 12, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
sigh
If you weren’t claiming that I was denying his efficiency then why did you point it out when you set out your argument? I seem to remember you making very sure to make it clear when you said, “36 points on 20 shots - pretty damn efficient to me.” Why did you say that if you understood my position? It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes my post REFERRED to efficiency, but my arguments had everything to do with the claim that he was more efficient because he attempted to score less often. It really is quite a simple concept. I was not using the free throws to analyze his efficiency, I was using them to analyze his ball distribution.
EFFICIENCY WAS THE FRAMEWORK FOR THE ARGUMENT, NOT THE ARGUMENT ITSELF. Referring to something does not make it the focal point of a conversation.
My posts have in no way assumed any sort of expertise on basketball, just common sense, but go ahead and say anything you want regardless of its relationship to the conversation. Why change now?
I have done nothing but point out a very simple concept, that Kobe tried to score just as often in game 3 as he did in games 1 and 2. The fact that he scored more efficiently, or that his shooting percentage was higher, does not change how many Laker possessions were spent with him trying to score instead of someone else. - In other words, his efficiency did not depend on passing the ball more.
As much as you want to point out that one cannot substitute free throws for shots it is even less valid to substitute free throws for passes. This is what some people here essentially were doing, and this is what I was disputing.
Get it yet? Everyone else got it long ago.
Now if you’re done with that dead horse…..
I can’t believe I’m still wasting my time with you.
David Said,
June 12, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
Kingsblade,
as an aside, your life is really going to change. Up until now I imagine its been easy with 1…wait until your 2 week old gets a little older. Then see where basketball fits in, if at all
Seriously, its a joy and that’s why I can converse with you and let idiots like jmn go by the wayside.
BTW, I am 52 with young kids…who has time for the other nonsense?
jmn Said,
June 13, 2008 @ 5:09 am
*yawn*
I have already wasted a whole minute debating myself on whether to reply to you or not.
When I said “36 points on 20 shots - pretty damn efficient to me!” I was merely stating that the stat showing 36 point on 20 shots is all that’s needed to show a player’s efficiency. There is no sense in getting into bogus stats about free throws being equal to field goal attempts. Does that make sense now?
“Yes my post REFERRED to efficiency, but my arguments had everything to do with the claim that he was more efficient because he attempted to score less often.”
Man what is WRONG with you? Did I not say that I know you mentioned other things but that I was focusing on the efficiency part? Is it so difficult to get this?
My whole point is that you were using a bogus stat. Like I said before - you can agree or disagree with that.
Whether efficiency was the framework of the argument or the argument itself has no bearing on the fact that you used a bogus stat to talk about it.
If you take the blinders off yourself you’ll be able to see that instead of the pedestal you think you’re standing on - you’re actually at the bottom of the grand canyon looking up.
Later hater.
jmn Said,
June 13, 2008 @ 5:23 am
David,
I think it’s so cute that you two are such friends now! I know a lot of people SEEM like nice guys on the internet…just don’t meet each other for coffee ok.
As to understanding the 2 “complicated” lines you wrote -
In response to Kingsblade’s “He irritated me with his ignorance”, you said
“I have a 4 year old and a 6 year old (not to mention a wife) — I know where you’re coming from, man.”
So you indicated that your two kids and your wife irritate you with their ignorance. YOU wrote it, not me. Don’t get pissed off ’cause I pointed it out.
Of course, you say now that you didn’t mean that - so fine I apologise and take it back.
But don’t call me an idiot when you’re the fellow writing sentences without knowing what they mean.
David Said,
June 13, 2008 @ 11:04 am
My response to Kingsblade was that he had a 3 year old and a 2 week old. Now do you get it? Was this just a gross misunderstanding?
Kingsblade Said,
June 13, 2008 @ 11:55 am
jmn,
Of course it matters. You say you are focusing on efficiency, but that is not what my argument was about.
I WAS SHOWING POSSESSIONS THAT KOBE DID NOT PASS. ONCE AGAIN - NOTHING TO DO WITH EFFICIENCY!
The fact that it was the framework and not the argument has everything to do with it, because what you have done is take points I have made in one argument and apply them to another in order to tell me I’m wrong. I just doesn’t work that way.
If you want me to come down from my high horse you have to try and use some logic please.
Here is what our argument sounds like to me:
me: Here is my specific argument about the number 1 because of A.
you: You are wrong about all numbers and I don’t care about A.
Your responses do not even relate to what I am saying at all.
Look, for a stat to be bogus it has to either be false, or it has to not show what you want it to show. I was using it to show the number of possessions that were used by Kobe to attempt to score. It effectively displayed exactly that, thus the stat is not bogus. It had nothing to do specifically with efficiency whatsoever. It had to do with my argument THAT KOBE WAS NOT PASSING MORE.
Here is an example of what you are doing:
Say you went to university and took 5 years to graduate becaus eyou got sick and had to withdraw from all your classes one year. The scool accepted your withdrawal and removed those classes from your record.
Later you were explaining to someone that you went to school for 5 years instead of 4, when they promptly told you that you were full of shit because even if you took 5 years to finish you only took 4 year worth of classes. Obviously your assessment that it took 5 years to finish must be bogus then right????
This is essentially what you are arguing.
I argued essentially that Kobe attempted to score 28 times while accruing his 12-20 stat line, which was more often that he attempted to score in game 2. You decided that, although it is perfectly true, it is a bogus stat that cannot explain things that it was never intended to explain.
On another note, do you also consider it bogus when possessions by a team are counted, since they count the same thing but do it for a team instead of a player?
I see that you now has misinterpreted someone else as well. Did it ever occur to you possibly you are the one with the comprehension problems since you seem to be the one with the regular misunderstandings?
I also should point out that you probably mean to tell David that he implicated, not indicated. They mean different things, and the difference is important in this case, since you could POTENTIALLY have been right had you said implicated, but were clearly wrong when you said indicated.
hmmmmm…I guess you’re right, I do think I’m better than you, just not for the reasons you think. Oh well, it will probably take someone who makes some kind of sense to change my mind, and I don’t think you have it in you.