Leaders among players are hard to find
We are just over a month into the season and one thing is for certain, there are a number of leaderless teams in the league and a few I will identify are extremely surprising.
A coach wears a number of hats besides coaching his team. Father figure, policeman and fireman come to mind. He would much rather tell you he wants to coach and have a parental quality when needed, but he will be happy if he can place the responsibility of policeman and part-time fireman on one or, if he is lucky, a few of his players.
People ask me all the time why I have not gone into coaching. My normal response is that I have always been afraid that I might be too much of a disciplinarian and that method would be hard-pressed to accomplish if I were not coaching experienced and committed players who actually get it when it comes to the word Team.
Take for example some great coaches like Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Rudy Tomjanovich, Chuck Daly, Pat Riley and Gregg Popovich. These coaches would not have been successful if it wasn’t for the leadership qualities of the great players that played for them. None of these coaches would have won multiple championships if they didn’t have players accepting and wearing one of those hats for them so they could concentrate on coaching and preparing the team more effectively.
Imagine what a coach has to police in relation to players during an 82-game season. They have to make sure they show up to practice on time, work hard in practice, play together as a team, professionalism on and off the court, etcetera. So imagine how ecstatic a coach would be if he had players that took on that responsibility and allowed him more time to focus on team and strategy. Although a coach knows he will have to extinguish some personal and emotional fires during the season – players not getting along or unhappy about playing time and their role on the team – but he will have fewer fires to deal with because of the ability of his leaders to keep players focused and on a common goal.
Could you imagine a player getting out of line on the great Boston Celtic teams while Bill Russell was playing? I could not imagine someone on the Bulls getting out of control with Michael Jordan practicing and playing harder than anyone each and every game. What about a teammate not running the floor hard when Magic Johnson was pushing the ball up the floor or not being focused on his extreme passing ability? Magic once told me that he would hit teammates in the head with the ball on purpose because they took their eye off of him.
I wonder… Was it Rudy Tomjanovich who demanded the ball should go to Hakeem Olajuwon every time down the court during the Houston Rockets back-to-back championships or was it Hakeem, who led by example with supreme effort on both ends of the court?
When I look at some teams that are playing well or underachieving with talented players, you really need to look no further than the leaders among players before you blame the coach and general manager.
TEAMS WITH GREAT LEADERSHIP
San Antonio Spurs
The Spurs are the ultimate role team. They are anchored by one the greatest players to ever play in Tim Duncan. No player steps out of his role because Popovich demands it and Duncan will not allow it to happen because of his unselfish nature and the fact that he allows Popovich to chastise him when he is not playing well, which sends a great message to the players who battle with him every night. Also don’t discount the secondary roles of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. David Robinson, who established this method of unselfishness by taking a secondary role to Duncan at the end of his career, should receive a tremendous amount of the credit for the togetherness of the Spurs.
Phoenix Suns
Steve Nash is not only the best point guard in the NBA, but he is the most unselfish players since Magic Johnson. When you watch Nash play you can honestly say he plays no favorites when he passes the ball. If you are open you get the ball. Who in their right mind would not want to play with him? If you watch him closely during games he never chastises teammates openly and he encourages them with high-fives when they accomplish something on the court or makes a mistake and he never wavers. When you play with someone like this you will always accept his leadership and the Suns follow his every lead. Throw in the perseverance of Grant Hill and this team has a level of class that allows them to enjoy the game the way it should be played and fans around the league appreciate it!
Dallas Mavericks
Avery Johnson has force-fed Dirk Nowitzki on the importance of leadership and it culminated into an MVP season in 2006, Dirk has learned not only to involve and appreciate his teammates but also to give them credit publicly. Jason Terry supplies the energy and enthusiasm to go along with the no non-sense style of Jerry Stackhouse. Stackhouse is legendary around the league for straightening up a teammate verbally and physically if they step out of line. Every coach needs a physical presence able to intimidate some players into following rules and regulations.
Utah Jazz
I didn’t mention Jerry Sloan among the great coaches because he has not won a championship, but he belongs there and it will be a shame if he does not win a title before he retires. I mention Sloan because he might be the best coach ever at designating leadership among his players. He demands it with his unwavering demands in practice and games. Sloan, I hear, will fine a player if his jersey is not tucked in for practice. Carlos Boozer and Deron Williams share the leadership on this team and it has showed the last few years. Leadership has nothing to do with age or experience and these two players exude it with great effort for 48 minutes. Their teammates have followed. When you mention the word Team, the Utah Jazz have defined that example for the last 15 years despite not winning a championship.
New Orleans Hornets
No surprise this team has good leadership. Byron Scott has been as successful a coach as any in the league. This should not surprise you since he falls from the Pat Riley and Magic Johnson tree. Scott has been taught by the best at establishing what Team really means and now he has one of the best young leaders in the game in Chris Paul. Paul is quickly becoming the next Steve Nash and the Hornets will reap the benefits for many years to come. Paul’s ability to get players like Peja Stojakovic and others to play above their ability is proof of what a leader can do for the success of your team.
Orlando Magic
Dwight Howard is the most imposing force I have seen since Shaquille O’Neal and what’s scary is that he could put up better stats before his career is finished. What’s so scary about Howard is how quickly he has shaken his mechanical offensive nature into a fluid Human Terminator on the court. But what I really like about Howard is his friendly nature and pleasant smile. I don’t know if he realizes it yet, but that goes a very long way with teammates and their acceptance towards him. They now try every way they can to force-feed him the ball. I also like the tough no non-sense manner of Jameer Nelson, who has seen plenty of hardships already in his young life and still exudes tremendous confidence and determination – which travels far with his teammates.
Detroit Pistons
Detroit might have the best collection of leaders in the league and that is why despite their age they will still compete for a championship the next few years. When you watch Detroit play, I immediately think of the Celtics when Bird, Parish and McHale had gotten older but still competed with a savvy desire to fundamentally make you look bad although athletically you were a much better team. Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Antonio McDyess, Rip Hamilton and the young but old Tayshaun Prince give the Pistons self policing and a no non-sense attitude, which every coach loves. The reason we hear more grumbling in Detroit than most places is because most of these guys have a fierce desire to lead. And yes, it can cause headaches for Flip Saunders, but he will take the headaches knowing that when these guys hit the floor they will give everything they have to win the game.
Boston Celtics
I love Kevin Garnett. I didn’t love him enough to support giving up Amare Stoudemire last summer. But let me say this again, I love Kevin Garnett. I think he is the second best leader in the game next to Steve Nash. I criticized him in Minnesota because I thought he was too unselfish and never took over like he should have, but as we see now in Boston with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, he is in the perfect environment and I am so happy for him. He has a respect for the game and his teammates that drips off of him when you watch the Celtics play. The Celtics right now are the class of the Eastern Conference and, with all due respect to the talents of Pierce and Allen, Garnett is the driving force with his unselfishness to just try and win the game anyway he can. If any player deserves a championship, it’s Garnett. This scenario is the perfect example when I mentioned all the great coaches. Doc Rivers will go from being a lame duck coach to quite possibly grabbing his second Coach of the Year award. Now whose league is this again? It’s a players’ league and don’t forget it!
TEAMS WITH NO LEADERSHIP
New York Knicks
I have taken a lot of heat for this comment, but I will say it again. The Knicks have some of the best collection of talent in the league. But one important piece of the pie is missing and that has created the inconsistency we see from night to night in the Knicks. Who should I point the finger at? Most of you want to say the coach and general manager Isiah Thomas, but didn’t I just give you the example of Doc Rivers, who had a terrible record last year but is looked at pretty favorably now that he has Garnett and his great leadership?
It’s easy to point the finger at Stephon Marbury, but Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Zach Randolph and Quentin Richardson are all capable to lead and have not visually stepped up to the plate. The Knicks are so ripe to lead that Bo Outlaw could be acquired and become the best leader the first day he arrives and he would probably not play. That comment should embarrass every Knick player on that team. No way would any of the teams listed above have allowed Stephon Marbury to compromise the togetherness of the team by leaving them to battle the Phoenix Suns because the coach asked him to become a better leader on the floor and play better defense. Where was the fireman Isiah needed to talk to Marbury before he got on a plane and went back to New York?
Leadership comes from any position and it is not necessarily the point guard position, but if you want to take a high percentage of the shots and get all the accolades then you have to take pride in making it easy on your teammates to care for you and accept your dominance of the ball. Hopefully Marbury, who has had some major hardships this season off the floor, will take notice at the way the Knicks have bonded lately in his absence to play more like a team with their talent should play.
Chicago Bulls
It’s hard for me to come down too hard on the Bulls players about leadership, because I personally think everyone of them would be a role player on any of the teams listed above. If you look at the Bulls roster, I don’t think any of these players were the top guys on their college team when they got drafted. I believe they are still growing and sooner or later one of them will evolve into a powerful leader. But right now they have to do it by committee and they have failed miserably. The obvious choice is Ben Wallace because that’s what the Bulls thought they were getting, but they forget the reason Detroit did not cry too much when he left town. It was because Wallace was becoming a complainer of minutes and strategy and not privately but at times publicly of Flip Saunders. So now you have a hard-working talented team that has no big-time player leadership and because of it Scott Skiles has to wear the hat and that’s when players start to get tired of the coach.
Kirk Hinrich has to pick his head up and play like the guard everyone was thinking he would become after a solid first two seasons. He seems to be worried too much about missing shots than becoming a leader like Nash and Chris Paul. That will undoubtedly sink the Bulls further in the basement of the Eastern Conference.
Miami Heat
I never thought a team coached by Pat Riley struggle with leadership – especially when you have Shaquille O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning and Dwyane Wade on the roster. I said it last year in an article and I will repeat it again… This team put every ounce of energy into a title two years ago and they are done. Riley should have blown it up and traded everyone except Wade and Shaq after that season. The Heat won with a veteran-laden team two years ago and the energy level took a major hit. Shaquille is not a spring chicken and he needs youth around him to keep him fresh and inspired. I listed Miami because they are struggling, but I really do believe they have players that want to lead. But they are a tired group – other than Wade – and it seems that he better grab the bull by the horns or the Miami Heat will make yours truly look like a good prognosticator because I was the only one who predicted before the season that they would not make the playoffs this season.
Memphis Grizzlies
Pau Gasol needs to play up to his potential and stop trying to jump ship. That attitude will not allow him to lead the team, where he is presumably the best player. The Grizzlies have very good young talent, but like the Bulls will need to find a leader that can allow Marc Iavaroni to have a solid year evaluating his team and at least get them close to the potential he expects.
James Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:01 am
Great article yet again Eddie, I liked the Magic anecdote
didnt Bo Outlaw get cut from the Magic though?
Thanks
Melvin Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:23 am
http://basketballnonsense.blogspot.com/
great post.. especially with the Knicks…. You have really stood your ground in saying the “best collection of talent” terms… Yeah, its not all about their pg its about everyone…. How about the Cavs? They dont have any life now! And seattle? They’re too young to have a leader. And Kurt isnot the one that can lead them…
Daniel Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Eddie, very well said about the bulls. I also think that Kirk Hinrich has not become a leader because he has been torched by other more athletic guards. I think the main problem with the bulls is that Hinrich is being depended upon as being the defensive stopper on this team at the 2 guard, which is a mismatch for the bulls anytime they play. They need Kirk to take a page from Steve Nash and attack the basket making his man work on defense as well. Gordon for his build is not quick or big enough and can’t guard a chair.
Eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:35 am
yes he did and i love him so much i want him still there and forgot lol
Eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Melvin
yes there are plenty of other leaders and failures, i just wanted to target the best and worst in my opinion right now. The Cavs were on the bubble of the worst, but i will hold out until they get healthy.
b_krayzie99 Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:50 am
where’s iverson? he plays so hard every game. if you don’t think he is one of the best leaders, i don’t know who is. i think you missed out eddie. but still, good read.
Martin Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Sorry, what does it mean “to jump ship”?
I agree about Gasol and it is a shame if you took a look on his unquestionable leadership for Spanish team for years (along with leaders such as Garbajosa, role players such as Calderon, Navarro but also Reyes, Jimenez Mumbru or Cabezas and disciplined youngsters such as Fernandez, Rodriguez (both of them)and his brother). Why could there be such a difference?
Marian Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Very uinteresting article. And as a suffering Heat fand I have to say that your call on the heat is right. But their problem is shaq being LA shaq, crieing and not leading by example. In my opinion with Alonzo Mournning they have one of the top10 leaders in the game. I think they have to give him a more active role to turn things around.shaq and wade are showing that they are not up fur the task.
You as an former NBA player, don’t you think that Zo is one of the best lead by example players ever?
Bob Dylan Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
You mean you were going to say the Cavs have no leadership????? what do you call what LeBron James does? You can say they dont have a coach, but to say they dont have a leader?? wow.
James Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
Eddie,
I can see all the teams with “great leadership” you have listed are succesful ones at the moment.
Do you think there are any players who have good / great leadership qualities yet are on a team who aren’t playing too well?
NBA4LIFE Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
Hi eddie, great article, i just wanna know 2 things:
1)Do you still like knicks’s roster??do you still think isaiah thomas and/or james dolan should stay? also, dont you think they should trade/release a couple of players?
2)Why do you hate manu ginobili? it’s clear that he has been the most succesful player in basketball( not just the nba) in the last 5 or 6 years, he’s an allstar like it or not (an unselfish star), he doesn’t complain or whine,he’s really clutch(not like kobe, but a great one)and he would sacrifice his numbers to help the team ( i bet 85% of the so called “stars” wouldnt do it)….its because Argentina beat Team USA twice? because he isnt american? or becasue he plays for the spurs?…and please,dont name the flopping..you know better than me that nash, amare, harris, ray allen, iverson ,raja bell, melo and others flops more than him.
Hope you can answer…PEACE!
Rick Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
Poignant observations,
I love my Grizzlies but they paid too much for a guy that can’t lead on the floor. Leadership is as valuable to a team as skill level and athleticism in my estimation. It even trumps athleticism many times (Bird and the Celtics were not extraordinary athletes). Someone has to look their teammates in the eye when they are losing to a team they should beat or are nurturing a slim lead and say ‘not tonight!’ ‘we are going to man-up and win this game. Who’s with me!’ Now I’m not a ‘rah-rah’ theorist but sometimes guys need a floor leader to push them to that extra level. With that said, I am excited for the potential greatness of the Blazers and Raptors. Two young, strong coaches in McMillan and Mitchell and two budding leaders in Brandon Roy and Chris Bosh. The Indiana picture is interesting too. Jim O’Brien is getting Tinsley, Dunlevy and Granger to play to a level that may make Jermaine O’Neal obsolete in that system.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
b_krayzie99
just because iverson plays hard and gets his numbers does not make him a great leader. it’s how much better he makes his teammates and foes he lead by example. i don’t see that in Denver right now. i see two players taking all the shots and dominating the ball.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:44 pm
Martin
This is not Spain sir. i could care less what he has been doing there. this is where he earns his living.
Jumpship means wanting to be traded instead of living up to his supposedly star potential.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
Marian
Zo is a leader i said it in the article what more do you want? lol
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Bob Dylan
i guess you can say “wow” then. look at the record and the production. Lebron does lead, but its not enough.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
James
you tell me i started the conversation you help finish it
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
NBA4LIFE
i am starting to think either i am nuts or you are. what did i say about Manu to suggest i hate him? what are you talking about?
cam Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Eddie,
Does Coach D’Antoni get no comment for Phoenix. No, because SN is the leader and MD is a petulant cheerleader. Ask Orlando about what a great leader GH is.
alex johnson Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Why is it that even tho they beat all the good teams the lakers still get no respect, they are the team with probably the best leadership
Rashidi Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
No shoutout for Stan Van Gundy?
NBA4LIFE Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
you don’t answer my questions eddie..i know it doesnt belong to this article, but in other articles i could note that you really dont like him and i just want to know why…by the way, you didnt answer the knicks question…PEACE
BRockin25 Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
Eddie, LBJ leads enough to take the Cavs farther than the Suns have gone recently
The Wizards are crap defensively, but I think Jamison and Butler deserve honorable mention for their leadership on and off the court. The Wizards have pretty good chemistry and confidence every night.
Is Amare Stoudemire one of the leaders for the Suns, and if so, how effective is he?
Great article though
CFatz Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
Hi Eddie,
As usual an insightful and profound article. I have some supplementary questions.
1) What does a coach look for in a player that he is pushing toward a leadership role or does the natural leader just stand up and take the reins?
2) How difficult is it for veterans to accept the leadership from a rookie or younger player like Chris Paul for instance?
3) When it comes to leadership - why don’t Kobe, Starbury and a few other very talented players get it?
4) Rasheed Wallace a leader? Really?
Sorry I know you already wrote the article, but these are a few things that come to my mind.
CF
:0)
Brian Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
hey eddie,
You said that Steve Nash is the most unselfish player since Magic Johnson. I think that you’re forgetting about a little guy named John Stockton, who just happened to play after Magic Johnson, and oh yeah, happens to be the most unselfish player ever! You’re probably not too fond of Stockton since he hit that three that sent the jazz to the finals and your team packing, but you’ve still got to throw him a bone!
great article by the way
Jimi Hendrix Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
I agree with Dylan, Eddie.
With all due respect, I dont see how you can honestly not have James on the list of leaders. Look how confident he makes his mediocre squad. Their record was actualyl failr impressive with him this year, considering their injuries and schedule. They had a few heart breaking losses this year. They could have easily had 3 more wins then they have now. Go back in time before the pistons game, that woul dmake them 12 and 3 I believe, as they were 9 and 6 before the injury.
George Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
Hi Eddie, great article as always andI trully enjoyed reading it. I lvoed watching you play and I love reading your articles. True Old School and all substance. I just have two point I want to make.
First I am not entirely sold on Garnett. I love him as a human being and I think of him as a special player of unique greatness but If he trully was a great leader he would’ve shown it by now, especially when it really counted. Like the Western Conference finals when he fouled out and watched his team get disposed of.
Second, about Miami. In fact hey have a great leader called Shaq-zilla. Their problem as well as Shaq’s problem is Pat Riley, as you correctly pointed out in an earlier article. Please excuse me if I am repeating something you wrote before but Riley in essence wants Shaq to be a role player. And because Shaq, insert_all_his_accomplishments, is not a role player even at this stage of his career, Riley appears to be undermining him. We see the results. No leadership and many L’s. I hardly see Wade as the solution if not part of the problem (I am starting to see some signs reminiscent of Kobe’s and Penny’s attitude after some initial success). I know you can point to the Admiral and how he accepted a reduced role and allowed Timmy D to take over, but neither D Wade nor Kobe nor Penny nor any off guard not named Michael Jordan could be compared to Duncan. And Shaq at 35 years young could play more dominantly than the Robinson at 30. Riley made D Wade the focal point of the team denying Shaq the ball and the results are in. I’ve written this here before. When Shaqzilla is the focal point and the leader, the team wins in the 70%, when Shaq is out the play 500 ball and when Shaq plays and Wade or Kobe or Penny or whoever, they are in the 60%. When things don’t run through the Daddy it makes little difference whether Wade plays, they still play around 500 or below if Wade is not completely healthy. I agree, Riley should’ve let go of everyone exccept Shaq, Wade and possibly Haslem because it’s hard to find a mid-level guy that gives you 10 and 8 and all the hussle plays. Then they need some 3 point shooters (Cook was a great draft pick) and slashers that are young and athletic enough to defend their positions. Throw the ball to the Daddy and let him work. He might be laid back and goofing around until all star break but by June you will have a shiny new ring and double your salary because the Daddy makes everyone look better, 1 through 12.
Martin Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
Thanks Eddie, anyway, why is it (in your opinion…) that the “difference of leadership” regarding Pau is so huge watching Spain and NBA. Could it be just the fact Memphis is where he “just” earns the money, or maybe even his leadership for Spain is overrated?
(and just to explain I am from Europe - that is why not clear language, but not from Spain)
Many thanks in advance
michael Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
I agree with you eddie, a team needs a floor leader.
Out of all the teams I am really surprised at the Heat. This should not be a team without a leader.
Shaq has not brought this team together. He has tired of Riley’s strong hand and is now indifferent to his coach. He is getting old and will have a hard time dealing with his mortality. He is far from the Shaq that won three championships in L.A. That Shaq was scary when he walked on the court. The miami shaq is just a shadow of his former self. Unfortunately, miami has two years and $40 million left after this season.
Wade has not shown great leadership. It was easy to say he was a leader when he had all stars around him and they were winning. But now the talent level around him is dwindling. He is the guy that needs to step up and lead this team with his play. He is currently failing. I question if he is the true superstar that the NBA tries to force feed down our throats.
Alonzo is on the verge of retiring, he might have been able to save this team… five years ago.
Let the rebuilding begin.
Neil Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 5:18 pm
Eddie,
Thanks for the article. As a Warriors fan, a lot of people questioned Nellie’s naming of Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes as Co-captains for this season (at least ESPN was playing it up as a joke). Since jackson’s rejoined the team, they’re one of the hottest teams in the NBA. What is your take on their leadership?
Not to hate on Dallas, but Dirk doesn’t really seem to have very many leadership qualities. Giving his ring to the Heat in the finals and getting knocked out by my Warriors in the first round last year. I do think he’s a great player, but leadership demands more than just what people expect you to do.
DTownReign Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
Can we please stop saying the Pistons are old until they look and play old? Shaq, 35 = old. CB, 30, Rip, 29 Tey, 28… aint old. McDyess, 33… just got done outjumping Al Horford(20). Sheed, 33, dropped 20 lbs and looks spry. Yes, they have great leadership, but their wits aren’t the only thing blowing out teams on this 5 game win streak.
dj hott Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
eddie leader of not denver can beat dallas in a 7 game series right now
in denver, u have 2 great players, a decent camby that should get more shots, and a injury infested team. its not AI OR CARMELO’ S FOUGHT, EXCEPT THE TEAM D
DWIGHT IS MVP OR LEBRON
CHICAGO THOUGHT A TEAM OF 5PLAYERS IN THE TOP 40 WITH NO LEADER OR DOMINATE STAR, WOULD GET THEM SOME WHERE.
AND DENVER IS JUST A YEAR AWAY, THEY WILL SIGN CASSELL
TRADE NENE,JR SMITH,&NAJERA- FOR DAVID LEE&QRICH
AND LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER
IF SHAQ WANTS THE BALL, HE NEEDS TO DOMINATE
I DONT SEE HIM POSTING WITH HIS HANDS UP SCREAMING FOR THE BALL
I DONT CARE IF HE IS 40 HE IS STILL 7′1 315, AND 1FT UNDER THE BASKET, HE STILL IS SHOOTING IN TOP 3%FG, SO IF HE PLAYS HUMBLE
HE SHOOT STILL BE ABLE TO FIND THE RIGHT SHOT, INSTEAD OF HOLDING THE BALL, LOOSING IT, OR HITTING A WIDE OPEN BUCKET
BUT WHAT IF KIDD GOES TO NJ-FOR JWILL,DCOOK,&HASLEM
MIAMI WOULD HAVE TO SIGN, GABE MUONEKE OR LEON SMITH OR SOMEONE FOR THE 4SPOT, BUT SHAQ GETS A FLOOR LEADER
AND DWADE GETS A DEFENDER IN THE BACKCOURT,
LOL BRANDON ROY, AND RICKY DAVIS GETS TO LEAD FROM THE BENCH
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:40 pm
BRockin25
how were you last year? my point exactly –i am not talking about the past. i am talking about right now today.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
Brian
i love John Stockton, but he is no where near the passer Steve Nash is. Steve gets his assists by passing to a plethora of players —Stockton got his from passing to one and he is the second all time leading scorer in the history of the game Karl Malone
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:44 pm
Jimi Hendrix
the article was about succesful teams and why they are winning. Last i checked Cleveland is below 500.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:47 pm
Martin
If thats the case than Pau needs to go play in Spain because i will roast him here if he does not pick it up.
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
Neil
I love the Warriors and you are right about Jackson. He is a lot like Stackhouse he takes no nonsense and that will keep the others in line
Rick Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
HEY MARTIN,
I am a Grizzlies season ticket holder and I have asked myself the same question. I love Pau’s skills and abilities but Memphis doesn’t get the same spirited leadership that he displays when playing with his native country. I believe many foreign players in the NBA have difficulty being vocal leaders due to cultural and sometimes language differences. It’s no secret that US culture and attitudes are not well received globally. He’s had to learn the norms and taboos of US living and US basketball. Some may argue that he’s been here seven years so he should be adjusted. As I watched him walking through the streets of Spain this summer commanding crowds worthy of a rock star I wondered if that discrepancy was enough to affect his passion for the team and the city he is playing in. I look back at other foreign players and see similar trends. Olajuwan and Mutombo had the US college experience. Dirk had Nelly and Avery pushing him and he is still not an outstanding leader. We have yet to see a great leader in NBA basketball that came in directly from another country (without US college experience).
eddie Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 6:51 pm
DTownReign
old does not mean they can’t play. It means they have experience and rely on smarts. some of you guys are just to sensitive.
If you are crying all the time who is holding the kids? lol
david Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
Eddie,
Great article…here’s some food for thought: why is it that the “superstar” players never seem to make great coaches? Examples: your buddy Isiah, Larry Bird, Magic…
WHy is it that the “role” players and students of the game seem to make good coaches? Examples: Pop, Phil Jackson…
Yeah, they all need superstars and great players / leaders to win, but how does a leader teach others to lead? I think you either have it or you don’t (Kind of like class).
Anyway, just some thoughts. Probably too metaphysical lol
Rocketfan Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 10:15 pm
Eddie,
Do you think the rockets is one teams that lack leadership? I think Tmac has matured significantly since his tenure in Orlando but i seem to wonder whether he will ever be a good leader. I also think they probably have no definite leader because sometimes it’s Tmac or Battier, and i think they signed Francis to be a “leader” too. What are your thoughts on my team?
Thanks :p
bballer Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 10:47 pm
even though i used to roast you a lot for picking the suns over the spurs, but i have to admit this was a great article. leadership always triumphs over talent. i remember greg anthony was a great floor leader, but gm’s would cut him and teams will flounder after he left. the same with charlie ward. why don’t gm’s recognize this more often? why don’t coaches allow more leaders to shine instead of getting all the glories themselves? eg. rick carlisle and george karl always clashed with strong willed individuals. great leaders like jordan, magic and td, creates conditions where even the marginally talented believe they can accomplish great feats. on paper, dallas and phx are more skilled than the spurs, but td enables michael finley, barry, oberto and elson play like all stars in crunch time.
what do you think of the potential of chris bosh? who will emerge as the man in portland - greg oden or brandon roy? jkidd is a good leader, without a good follower in vc. ljc
bballer Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:05 pm
as for foreign players - i think most of those guys don’t respect their fellow american players. a case in point is andrew bogut’s comments, pau gasol’s comments in the spanish press and the attitudes of some other players when speaking to their own media in their own language. unfortunately, those guys don’t realize in the age of the internet, we have access to their words of wisdom. memo to kirilenko - russian papers are online and are either printed in english or is easily translated. it is hard to lead people who you do not respect. whereas if you see steve nash, the guys who he hung out with while playing with canada or playing pick up ball, he respected all types of individuals regardless of background. as mentioned, he went to university in the states and being from vancouver, understands some aspects of american culture. those that respect the culture like jianlin, yao, parker, nocioni or manu, they have a tendency to mesh better with the americans.
funny thing. with all the talk about the european style of basketball, why is the only european on the team boris diaw. the suns are winning with a predominant american lineup. this style was popular in the nba until the mid 90’s. there is nothing european about it. it is just free flowing basketball.
dj hott Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
leaders among league by position
pg
1.s.nash sg sf pf
2.b.davis 1.k.bryant 1.l.james 1.k.garnett
3.j.kidd 2.a.iverson 2.c.anthony 2.t.duncan
4.t.parker 3.d.wade 3.t.mcgrady 3.c.boozer
5.d.williams4.r.allen 4.p.pierce 4.d.nowitzki
6.chris paul 5.m.redd 5.r.jefferson 5.c.bosh
7.gilbert arenas6.joe.johnson 6.caron butler 6.s.marion
8.chaucey billups7.k.martin 7j.howard 7.z.randolph
9.l.barbosa 8.v.carter 8.josh smith 8.a.jamison
10.r.felton 9.m.ginobuli 9.r.lewis 9.a.jefferson
10.s.jackson 10.l.aldrige
10.j.richardson
11.r.hamilton
centers
1.d.howard
2.yao
3.a.stoudemire
4.m.camby
5.s.oneal
6.c.kaman
7.e.okafor
8.t.chandler
9.z.ilgauskus
10pau gasol
11.e.curry
12.a.bynum
on the fence, b.roy,g.oden,t.prince,r.wallace,l.deng,b.gordon,h.turk,
f-stojakovic,inj-e.brand
kidd to la-for kbrown,farmar,radmonovic
then when k.brown contract ends, u have money for e.brand, or josh smith, imagine, vince,josh,&rj
Vitaliy Said,
December 7, 2007 @ 11:49 pm
Hey Eddie,
First of all, I’d like to thank you for responding to all these posts; that is definitely not something you have to do and it is greatly appreciated.
Second of all, I completely agree with you on the Knicks. Infact, I was just telling my father the same exact thing. I do however believe that Malik Rose is a great leader, much like Bo Outlaw, Darrell Armstrong and Mark Madsen are….
I also believe it is time for Marbury to leave his hometown. He was a great point guard when he first came here but has only been a cancer to the town ever since. Isaih is a great general manager and has not done too much wrong as far as trades and drafting. If I would be Isaih, I would get rid of Marbury. Just trade him for some future picks and a few expiring contracts along with solid youngsters. I think the great collection of talent will go to waste soon if the mindstate of the Knicks doesn’t change. The Knicks would do so much better with a point guard such as Calderon or Rondo. They just need a less egoistic leader and the whole atmosphere will change.
Also, while I have your attention (Or atleast I hope I do,lol)
What are your thoughts on the coaching of the Minnesota Timberwolves? I think the coaching staff has made a terrible mistake by not playing Gerald Green more. I would have started him from the beginning and built his confidence high from the start. Now he seems un-involved on the bench, his shoulders slump and his play has suffered in turn(when he does play).
My point is that, if they already chose to rebuild, why not play the future stars of your team? They give major minutes to Marko Jaric and Greg Buckner and do not play Gerald Green, Corey Brewer or Craig Smith enough. That is just not smart in my opinion, and going back to the topic, bad leadership. The coach should recognize that Green and Brewer will be on the team for a long time to come and will have to learn to lead if they should ever decide to get some wins. Sitting on the bench won’t allow them enough self-esteem to even think about telling somebody else what to do. I am mostly speaking for Gerald Green, because I purchased NBA League Pass just to watch him play and all I get to watch is a (2-15)Timberwolves team that does not even allow it’s youth to prosper.
gio Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 12:22 am
to dj hott,
Denver:
-denver won’t sign sam cassell next year.
-denver won’t certainly trade nene, jr smith, and eduardo najera for david lee and q. richardson.
-they can’t win it all with those trades..
Miami:
-shaq wants to dominate the ball more?? he should loose a little weight and be a little quicker and handle the ball more.
-at the same time, miami desperately needs good back-up players
-or they should improve their supporting players like ricky davis, jason williams, daequan cook, mark blount..
Jason Kidd:
-What if Kidd goes to miami for williams, cook and haslem..?
this will be their line-up:
pg-jason kidd, smush parker, chris quinn
sg-dwyane wade, penny hardaway
sf-ricky davis, dorell wright
pf-mark blount, alexander johnson, earl barron
c-shaquille o’neal, alonzo mourning
new jersey’s line-up:
pg-jason williams, marcus williams, darrell armstrong
sg-vince carter, daeqaun cook
sf-richard jefferson, bostjan nachbar, antoine right
pf-nenad kristic, udonis haslem, malik allen, josh boone
c-jamaal magloire, sean williams, jason collins
miami will get more leadership experience, more assists, and more wins.
new jersey will not be as good w/o j. kidd but they’ll still win some..
-> and your some of your rankings are confusing..
What if Kidd goes to los angeles for kwame brown, jordan farmar, and vladimir radmanovic.. wont happen man!
think before you type and do things……..
eddie Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 2:21 am
DJ HOTT
I LIKE YOUR SPUNK BUT PLEASE DONT KILL US WITH YOUR LINEUPS ON THIS ONE OK
Rashidi Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 5:07 am
“i love John Stockton, but he is no where near the passer Steve Nash is. Steve gets his assists by passing to a plethora of players —Stockton got his from passing to one and he is the second all time leading scorer in the history of the game Karl Malone”
I think most of us know that Stockton got many of his teammates easy buckets, not just Malone.
However, going by your logic, will you also say Chris Paul is a vastly better passer than Deron Williams? Deron’s assists are mostly to Boozer, whereas Paul’s are spreadout amongst his whole team.
And don’t be such a Suns homer. Nash passes to everyone because everyone on his team is capable of scoring. Nash has Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Bell, and Hill. After Malone and Hornacek, Stockton had Bryon Russell and Greg Ostertag. Slight difference.
bballer Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 9:42 am
that minny point is a good one. i still don’t know why minny doesn’t start brewer and let him play through his mistakes. the team is terrible already. plus minny needs to develop a style of basketball to make it easier to bring in players that can adapt to that style. this is what colangelo did in phx and now in toronto. there is a lack of leadership in the front office in minny and it trickles down to coaching a players. is mccants the future sg or is it green. choose and get rid of the other. the lineup should be brewer, gomes, jefferson, mccants, jaric (’til foye gets back) with smith, a. walker, buckner and telfair coming off the bench. trade the surplus for role players and like the rest of the nba, develop an uptempo game. see who fits and who doesn’t.
realistically eddie, even though you are right about the leadership on the court, the real problem at times is the lack of leadership in the front office and a lack of identity for their teams. without that identity, it is difficult to implement a culture where people can follow. san antonio is the best team for this in the league. they are already grooming the young guys for the future. players like mahimini, splitter and d. washinton will be holding up the fort for the next 15 years. from that group real leaders will emerge. the culture of success is not being implemented in most nba franchises that is why they end up with knuckleheads on and off the court.
Melvin Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:55 am
I think everything has been said…. How about you Eddie, do you think you are a leader? =)
craig beckerman Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 11:14 am
you said in your article youve been asked many times why you dont want to be a head coach, i think theyres a reason you didnt mention and i can understand it. what you did throughout your nba career and afterwards is prove one thing you were a great shooter in the past i didnt give you credit for being an effective rebounder throughout your career and i apologize for not noticing that. one thing i wont apologize about though is noticing that your assists were always pretty low for a starting small forward, you could have been a grant hill type player but i believe you were too selfish always looking for your next shot, rather then always looking to do what it took to help the team. i believe thats why to my limited knowledge you now focus on shooting techniques. maybe some nba team would be wise { like the sonics} to let you coach them on shooting. i dont mean this as an insult just a fact thanks
craig beckerman Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 11:22 am
i would even suggest to the sonics that they let you work with durant before he becomes a Tskitishvili type bust which sad to say isnt looking that far off
Michael Bennett Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 11:44 am
It looks like all the Bulls did this off-season was focus on how to beat the Detroit Pistons… and forgot about every other team in the league. Last night’s win was huge, and hopefully sparks a series of wins, so the Bulls can get up to .500 before the end of the year. We’ll see…
This is a great article, Eddie. It’s an interesting one… Because a team leader ON the court is what always separates the champions from the chumps. I wish you would have written about how Kobe Bryant is NOT a great leader. He does have some leadership qualities, but he’s definitely not a team leader like Tim Duncan or even Chauncey Billups. I think this year he is more than the previous two — guys are starting to accept playing around him — but, he still hasn’t shown that he’s the guy to look up to, to ask questions to, to follow. If and when he does turn into a true on-court leader, the Lakers will be a contender. They have the right pieces.
I’m so sick of hearing about the Knicks. You ALWAYS talk about their ‘talent’. And, I’ve challenged you before, saying it’s not talent, it’s athleticism. I think talent is a combo of heart, athleticism, brains and execution. Teams that have talent WIN. Teams that have athleticism (Knicks, 76ers, Bobcats, Kings) but not heart and brains DO NOT WIN. The Knicks are a sad situation because they used to be a team of glory. Even though I hated John Starks, I loved the Bulls match-ups at the Madison Square Garden. It’s one of the best city’s in the world. It deserves better than THIS current team. I’d lose EVERY player except for David Lee, Nate Robinson, Quentin Richardson, Jared Jeffries and Malik Rose. Ship out Isiah Thomas. Start over. Lose with dignity, not with the 2nd highest payroll.
That’s it, for now. Good times!
Kingsblade Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
Rashidi:
Why is it everyone dismisses Nash by saying that all his teammates are good at scoring. The reason I find it amusing is because nobody thought these guys were any good before Nash came. Nash comes to town, everyone starts getting the ball, and now they are all brilliant at scoring. Why is it that guys they trade for have all had their career years with Nash? Why do guys that leave do not improve?
However I will agree with a big part of your point. The question originally wasn’t whether Nash was a better passer than Stockton, it was whether Nash was more unselfish than Stockton. I don’t know why Eddie brought up the assist numbers at all.
It is hard to argue that Stockton is definitely one of the most unselfish players of all time as well, whether he passed to 1 guy, 2 guys, or 4 guys. I certainly remember some pretty nice passes to guys like Hornacek. Jeff Malone averaged nearly 20 most of the time he was there. Thurl Bailey scored his share as well. That Jazz were a team that generally had 4 doublr digit scorers, so I think that Stockton passed that ball around to some other guys.
Kingsblade Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Eddie,
Great article. Leadership is often among the most underrated qualities in an athlete in any sport.
I was hoping thought that you would back up your premise with some evidence of teams that declined in the loss of a leader, even though it was not really expected that they would do so.
For example…how many predicted that the loss of Divac would hurt Sacramento so badly. Or how much did the Fact that Sam Cassell only played 59 games and had limited minutes many games he did play during 04-05 contribute to their missing the playoffs after making th conference finals the year before.
Teams take on the personality of their leaders, whether he is their best player or not, and teams without leaders cannot be successful until they find an identity.
Chris Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Dont ever compare Steve Nash to Magic Johnson, ever!
Kingsblade Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 3:34 pm
He compared their levels of selfishness, not their abilities as players.
eddie Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Chris
did the King help explain. lol
KevinConnor Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
I do agree wih you on most of the article but comparing Isiah´s situation with Doc´s is bullshit. Isiah himself is responsible for the kind of players playing for the Knicks right now. Doc definitely wasn´t responsible himself for the players on the Celtics roster last year.
Michael Bennett Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
Craig Beckerman said:
“i would even suggest to the sonics that they let you work with durant before he becomes a Tskitishvili type bust which sad to say isnt looking that far off”
Huh? ROY guaranteed and these stats:
20.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 1.9 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.3 bpg, .398 FG%
at the age of 19!!!
Beckerman — Do you watch the NBA? You posted this the night after a great Seattle win over the Bucks where Durant scored 35 (on 9-20 FG) with 8 rebounds and 5 blocks. Great timing!
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
gia, kidd to la, would work, because now farmar averages 11pts, like kidd, at a rate 17million less and 12yrs in age, then, kbrown, drops 9mil
and radmonovic averages the same 10 as kidd, pointwise,
so it isnt as bad as a trade as u think. casell already said he likes denver, and they need a tall pt,veteran,boom,cassell.makes sense,and what CAN THE KNICKS DO
I THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE A PLAYOFF TEAM,AND SOMEONE ELSE SAID THEY WERE THE MOST TALENTED1-12-
AND U SAID THE DENVER NENE,JR SMITH,ETC TRADE WOULD WIN IT FORTHEM? WELL NENE IS OVERRATED&OVERPAID,INJURYPRONE,AND JRSMITH,IS UNUSED,DOESNT FIT THE TEAM,- SO JUST DUMPING THESE FUXKS, IS NOT A PROBLEM, HAVING THEM WONT WIN IT EITHER,
HONESTLY WHO WOULD U PUT NEXT 2IVERSON,CARMELO&CAMBY?
SOMEBODY ANSWER THAT?
JOSH SMITH?J.ONEAL?KIDD?E.BRAND?RIP HAMILTON?BECAUSE DENVER IS A PIECE AWAY FROM GREATNESS, KMART,NENE-ARE SALARY EATERS,
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
IF NJ DOESNT WANT2EXTEND
MIGHT AS WELL SAVE, IN A TRADE
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
GIA DOU EVENWATCHBASKETBALL
SHAQ HAS LOST WEIGHT, HES JUST CLUMPSY&LAZY NOW,AND BLAMING IT ON OTHERS,WHOS STOPPING HIM FROM DOMINATING?
HISSELF,MAYBE HIS XWIFE,THREW OFF HIS GAME.
AND YEA I LOVED THE TINSLEY BETWEEN HEDO TURKS LEGS, FOR THE SCORE LAST NIGHT,IN A ORLANDO LOSS
THEIR HUMAN,LOL
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
MEMPHIS SUX CUZ PAU GAY SOL, ISNT LEADING,CONLEY IS HURT,AND WHEN WAS DARKO EVER GOOD?
CHICAGO FANS SURE ARE QUITE THESE DAYS.
ALRITE IM OUT LIKE THE HOMELESS DURING THE HOLIDAYS.
craig beckerman Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
one good game doesnt prove anything the fact is hes been shooting below 400 thats not exactly a guarenteed nba future by any means
craig beckerman Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
Dec 05 vs. LAC W 95 - 88 35 5 - 13 1 - 2 7 - 8 0 7 7 1 0 2 3 4 18
Dec 02 vs. GSW L 96 - 109 25 2 - 12 0 - 0 2 - 2 0 3 3 0 0 1 3 0 6
do you know the number of players who have had one good game that arent in the nba anymore 5-13 2-12 these numbers arent indicative of a good shooter. nor is .398 so my question for you is do you watch the nba or do you watch one game?
Rick Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
dj hott,
Darko put up good numbers in Orlando they just didn’t give him clock. He’s playing well for us now he has had injury probs. No one knows how much or how little Conley’s impact on the team would be. Maybe he’d get everyone involved and be the hero or maybe he’d commit mass turnovers and have everyone screaming to bench him. You don’t know so keep quiet…or ‘quite’ as you say.
BTW the homeless usually come out of the woodwork during the holidays.
I’m out like Miami in the playoffs.
gio Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
to dj hott,
“AND U SAID THE DENVER NENE,JR SMITH,ETC TRADE WOULD WIN IT FORTHEM? WELL NENE IS OVERRATED&OVERPAID,INJURYPRONE,AND JRSMITH,IS UNUSED,DOESNT FIT THE TEAM,”- dj hott
-i did’nt say this trade would win it for them.. i wrote that it would’nt work. read man!. its posted clearly there…
-cassell likes the nuggets but how can they play well if cassell shoots a lot and while the real stars are allen iverson and carmelo anthony?!
-jason kidd might be traded but most likely not to the lakers because of all the problems that kobe’s having there..
-rumors are spreading that maybe cleveland because of lebron james and other key players or
-dallas because of last season’s mvp dirk nowitzki, josh howard, jason terry, jerry stackhouse, eddie jones, juwan howard, devin harris and all the other supporting players.. well obviously if they trade jason, some of the good players will go to nj.
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:27 pm
not to many freshmen college players of the years, that are 3inches taller then anyone at their position,come to the league barely old enough to buy lottery tickets, and average 20pts per game, then flop, oh durant is the only player i described, and no way he will flop.durant is having a better or about the same year as lebron his first year- and if he is listed as a 2guard on the ballot their are about only how many better than him in the west now
1.k.bryant,2.a.iverson3.kevin.martin(hurt),4.ginobuli5.b.roy-barely then durant- its durant will avg 20 this year 24 next 26next,playoffs,13-time allstar- and in college, beasley,is a bit undersized,lowe is no better than hansbrough, oj mayo, plays more like a marbury then wade. koufos, is good, a biedris,okur -type. deandre jordan, is good, 7footer,rose, is a speedy pg with size, eric gordon is the best player, but only like 6′3 -6′4,but can shoot better than arenas and can jump, the spurs have leaders, followers, the spurs just rock.
and eddie the suns rock too
WEST-SPURS VS SUNS
EAST-CELTICS-MAGIC- IM SORRY, D.HOWARD IS TOO GOOD, FOR DETROIT TO DENY HIM, THIS YEAR, LAST YEAR THEY DIDNT HAVE R.LEWIS, AND HOWARD WAS REAL GOOD, BUT NOT UNSTOPPABLE, LIKE UMM NOW
gio Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:30 pm
i agree with what rick said.. about darko milicic and mike conley jr. and dj hott, check your spelling dude..?!
and miami will be good in time.. they just need to blend more and strengthen their chemistry..
gio Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
well dj your pick for the western and eastern finals are good.. i mean those teams most probably will battle it out for the top spot this year.. nice one bro..
dj hott Said,
December 8, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
GIA, DUH CASSELL WOULD RECOGNIZE STARS, AND GIVE THEM THE BALL, ALSO DUE TO HIS AGE. THE CELTICS, AND THE SUNS HAVE LIKE 6 SCORERS, SO U AND RASHIDI, MUST DONT KNOW THAT TEAMS CAN WIN WITH MORE THAN 2 SCORERS
AND I MUST HAVE SPELLED IT WRONG, I KNOW U SAID THAT TRADE WOULDNT MAKE THEM WIN IT ALL, SO SHIT
BUT IT WOULDNT HURT THEM EITHER, AND HOW MANY TRADES, MAKE TEAMS WIN IT ALL, IT TAKES TIME, AND CASSELL WILL BE A FA- NENE WONT BE HURT,AS WELL AS HUNTER, AND JR, SO THEY CAN GET BETTER, OR TRADE THEM FOR 1 SOLID PLAYER, MAYBE JERMAINE ONEAL,WOULD PLAY BETTER, OR TRADE VALUES LOWER NOW.
AND DALLAS DOESNT NEED KIDD, THEY NEED A ROUGH GUY, OR KOBE.
KIDD TO DALLAS, WOULD MAKE CUBAN LOOK EVEN DUMBER FOR GETTING RID OF NASH. MAVS HAVE TOO MANY GENTLEMEN, GUYS THAT OPEN THE DOORS FOR VISITING TEAMS, GIVE OPPOSING TEAMS EXTRA BALLS TO WARM UP BEFORE THE GAME. AND GIA
KIDD GOING TO LA, WOULD, DA, MAKE THE PROBLEMS BETTER.
THEY ARE KINDA WINNING, BYNUM IS BETTER, RADMONOVIC IS SUPRISING, AND KIDD AND KOBE GET ALONG AND RESPECT EACH OTHER.
IM OUT LIKE BARKLEYS STOMACH
anthony Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 1:27 am
the eastern conference only has three winning teams.
the heat and the bulls suck if they can’t even get to .500 in that conference.
nate t Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 1:46 am
I think you underestimate Ginobili and Parker… why do people see the Celts as 3 stars, but the Spurs somehow as one star and two “secondary role players?” I think Ginobili and Parker are at least as good as Allen and Pierce right now, and quite possibly better. Since Duncan went out, the Spurs have beat Dallas and Utah, with Manu scoring 37 in both. Parker scored more paint points last season than Garnett or Pierce. Those two are not simply role players– they are real stars.
winkstrap Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 6:12 am
you talk about leaders so i’ll highlight them (*indicates leader)
best 10 players in the nba right now taking into consideration performances over the past few years
1. l.james *
2. k.bryant *
3. k.garnett *
4. t.duncan *
5. s.nash *
6. d.wade should develop into a real leader
7. d.howard very soon
8. d.nowitzki dosent have it in him
9. j.kidd *
10. a.iverson dosent make others better
David Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 6:42 am
Eddie,
Do you really think Gasol could become a leader?
I think he could be a second option after a real leader -somebody playing with heart- but not a leader. I don’t know why, but I can’t see him leading any winning team in the NBA nowadays…
Two years ago he seemed to play with heart, but since then I’ve seen him play just with legs and arms.
amin Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 9:00 am
y’all say some stupid sh%t.
justifying trading kidd by comparing point totals? Radmanovich? that’s just ignorant. if you watched the usa national team and saw the difference between the team before kidd, and the team with kidd, you have an idea of the player he is. He pushes the tempo, boards like a beast, is as unselfish as Nash, etc. He brings a lot to the table that don’t necessarily end up in the most basic stat line.
then someone says that Durant’s gonna bust because he’s shooting sub-40 percent? He’s a 19 year old kid who’s essentially been given both the green light to shoot at will, plus a diet of double teams and keyed-up defense already. no wonder he’s missing some shots. skitishville never showed anything in terms of flashes, and was an untested, unproven commodity drafted WAY too high. whereas Durant did it again and again at an elite university. its just a stupid comparison
then to top that, the kid who’s always shouting in capitals comes back with “durant’s the fifth best 2guard in the west”
that’s just silly, too. He’ll get there eventually, though he’ll fill out and play a Mcgrady type of roll, i.e. 2/3 hybrid. obviously Mcgrady is better than him now. so is Josh Howard, who admittedly plays a few different positions, too. The thing is that, right now, Durant’s D has been none too great (though he’s recorded some blocks) and that has to be a factor. Foye, when healthy, is better
but he’s gonna be a great one, for sure
anyway. with all the bullshit, no wonder eddie dropped out.
amin Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 9:15 am
and as to the whole leadership thing, it seems like it’s a bit more complicated than just that some guys have it, and others don’t. So much of it is a product of the environment players find themselves in at any given moment.
Thus, KG now is deemed to have leadership skills, whereas in minnie, he was overbearing. Shaq’s the greatest leader on the planet in 06 for the championship run, but now that they’re losing, not so much.
Stephen Jackson’s a psychopath, but now in g’d out Oak-town, he’s Captain Jack
and on and on
I know that, like in any given social arrangement, certain guys assume the lead. but if those who would be his subordinates don’t go along for the ride, than you have anarchy, insurrection and a lot of losses.
So, though it is our nature to laud the leader, I think that the secondary stars and the roll players, too, are just as much responsible for the cohesion that the alpha dog is given credit for. if not for Pippen’s selflessness, would Jordan’s intense, nasty ‘leadership’ have gone over so well? I think not
Eddie Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 9:56 am
KevinConnor
how do you know?
Eddie Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 9:59 am
nate t
they will get their chance to prove it in a few years. Allen and Pierce have proved it by their work on teams by themself. Parker and Ginobli are under the shadow of Duncan.
Martin Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Hey Rick (David, Bballer)
Thanks for interesting opinions. It seems a bit of all. I believe the reception could be huge (and unfortunate) factor for Gasol (when you see 100000 people yelling at a boring soccer match weekly in Spain) and also the problem of respect of the cultures is an issue (mutual, not only one-way).
I thought also of the leadership. Watching Spanish team playing, it seems to me (especially at World Championship and Olympics) they seem very often like they have nothing (not so much) to lose and the result is even for Pau to play better. On the other hand, having one very strong leader beside him would probably make him much better. It wouldnt have to be on-court leader (I still believe he is able to be on-court star and taking his team to the victories as he did for national), maybe just very strong personality off-court (like Avery Johnson was for Nowitzki or like David Robinson - of course on-court as well - for Duncan). But maybe it could be a bit (really just a bit) late, but he never had real leaders besides him as I remember.
Thanks for all of you discussing
benj Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
Huge Dallas Mavericks fan here, but I dunno how we ranked among the highest. Leadership is not something to rave about if it comes and goes. Sure, Dallas has some semblance of leadership and at times at immense and jawbreaking levels… but during the time that it counts the most, nobody steps up to take the reins.
craig beckerman Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
he shouldnt be averaging 20 ppgs is the problem, hes actually hurting the sonics not helping them if hed take better shots they might win a few more games there is such a thing called passing, and while i dont have the stats to back it up im sure the sonics might have won a few more games if he shot 450 or 500. it appears to me the problem is that hes not shooting enough threes where his shooting percentage is actually decent, hes trying to go inside too much like he did in college and at this point he doesnt understand he doesnt have an nba frame just yet. im also quite sure that theyre arent too many nba starting 2 guards that average less then 2 assists a game except for ridnour { because of injury} he has one of the worst shooting percentages on the team which just proves hes not a team player or a smart player hes a black hole like he was in college, because he only cares about himself. its funny how people expect time and maturity to happen, king lebron is a leader 8 assists a game mcgrady even averages 6. whos to say that this career trend is going to change? how do we know hes not going to end up a joe barry carrol or benoit benjamin and yes i know theyre both centers, players that put up decent numbers but never cared about there teams. i didnt know the homeless had computers. im sure some of this is carlesimos fault he use to know how to coach im not even sure if he cares anymore, with the uncertanity of the franchise. one thing i do know for sure , oden was the correct choice with the number 1 pick, and theyre will be players drafted behind durant that seattle had wished it had picked instead
nate t Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
What did Allen and Pierce prove in the past, that they could consistently lead their teams to sub .500 winning percentages and rarely make the playoffs??
This doesn’t equate to Manu’s level of success and leadership as mvp of his euroleague team and mvp of his gold medal winning olypic team. Of course Duncan is great, but he can’t win titles alone– Garnett proved that in Minnesota. Or do you think Duncan’s that much better than Garnett?
nate t Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Craig– it’s hard for me to blame Durant for anything right now– the Sonics were already a mediocre team last year, and then lost their two best players. He’s already ahead of where Kobe and T-Mac were at 19– the guy’s not even old enough to walk into a bar and order a beer, but he’s already the best player on his NBA team.
Hammond Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
Rasheed Wallace helps give the Pistons “self-policing and a no nonsense attitude?” Can’t agree with that statement– he was a huge problem & bad attitude his entire career, was one of the main reasons Sabonis left the Blazers, set records for number of technical fouls, etc. When he arrived in Detroit where he was surrounded by talent, he improved, but at that point ANY baby step in the right direction would’ve been an improvement! He is a talented player, but is still to this day a guy who will pick up a T in the 4th quarter of a close game.
Also. while I don’t agree with the comment made by someone else that you “hate” Ginobili, it certainly does seem like you try to slight his accomplishments every chance you get. If the Suns traded Leandro & Bell (biggest flopper in nba) for Manu, tthey’d be a lock to win the championship. Luckily, the Spurs are too smart to make that move.
Lastly– to Michael Bennett: please stop writing that ridiculous thing you always write when you disagree with someone: “DO YOU EVEN WATCH THE NBA?!”
YOU picked the Chicago Bulls in preseason to win the nba title this year!!!
craig beckerman Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
5 players i think might have better nba careers then durant
this is based on potential versus production, as im not impressed with
someone shooting under 400 and getting less then 2 assists a game
al horford - next elton brand a lot closer to next brand then durant is closer to next mcgrady or garnett
nick young - great production in limited time
sean williams- shoots high percentage, has already gotten 22 effective rebounder
daquan cook- can actually shoot , already scored 20 in limited minutes
glen davis- limited minutes already good production
we havent even seen fernandez or splitter stateside yet
everyone wants to compare durant to current superstars yet the fact as of now remains we havent seen much growth from last year to this year, growth can only occur if players work on theyre game, and i wouldnt count on durant doing that
frank Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
eddie,
nice article. only disagreements concern the cavs and the heat. it is not leadership these teams lack, but talent. every team in the league with hopes of a title shot got better with the exception of those two teams.
danny ferry is wallowing in his own mess right now, with overpaid players(ie. damon jones, donyell marshall, larry hughes) and underqualified selfish morons(anderson varejao, sasha vulacic). lebron is once again surrounded with b-talent, and if it wasn’t for his sprained finger, they would definitely be over .500.
as for the heat– i know the subtraction of antoine was a load of riley’s shoulders, but is ricky davis really an upgrade. wasn’t he the same guy that purposely missed a shot with 5 seconds left in a game, so he could get the rebound and achieve a triple double? hasn’t he always been a cancer for his team– a guy with uber amounts of talent, yet no comprehension of how to play the game. and name me another player on that team outside wade or shaq or zo, that you would want on your team. tough question huh.
and to whomever said that the guys on the suns were nothing before steve nash should get his facts straight. the only sun who has had a longer tenure than nash in his second go around with phoenix is marion. and if memory serves me right, he was an all star before nash got there. amare was a draft pick, barbosa was in a spurs uni, diaw in a hawks uni, and hill was on the dl uprooted from his path towards greatness. and raja made himself into the player he is, he made himself into a better defender ans shooter. to make the assessment that they were nothing is a horrid statement, and an insult to guys i mentioned. he made them better, but they weren’t too bad to begin with.
and lets not rag on durant so soon. look up the rookie seasons of kg, tmac, and kobe. those are the guys i am comparing durant to and where are they now. let’s stop comparing durant to the likes of lebron, dwight howard and melo– the first two just being freaks of nature, and melo had about 30 lbs. on durant when he came into the league. he’s a skinny 19 year old kid looking much like tmac did his rookie year. as for the statement:
“everyone wants to compare durant to current superstars yet the fact as of now remains we havent seen much growth from last year to this year, growth can only occur if players work on theyre game, and i wouldnt count on durant doing that”
of course he hasn’t shown improvement from last year. last year he was the best player in college basketball. this year he’s playing guys on a nightly basis that have also won that award, and other guys who would’ve won that award, if they even went to college. he’s not toying with boys anymore, but facing the best basketball players on the planet. you’re progression would decline slightly as well. wait until next year to make that comment. only then will it be justified.
and one last thought eddie–
as for the pistons, the leadership is there, but a coach to lead them isn’t. flip has always shown that he can’t make halftime adjustments, coach a team to make a defensive stop, or utilize his players well enough to win. he showed this with the wolves, and he’s gonna drag the aging pistons into the same black hole he constructed back with kg. it’s hard for me to put any blame on kg not winning in minnesota when flip was his coach. and unless the pistons realize this, their window for another championship will shortly be shut.
dj hott Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
craig, durant is having the best rookie season out of kobe,tmac,lebron,g.green. and his percentage is low because hes a rookie, and at the 2 instead of 3, and lebron&tmac are like pt forwards, i dont see rashard lewis getting, 9asts agame either. durant could be playing better,
the guy gets 20ppg and now hes no good?
the sonics are no good for getting rid of ray allen. durant and allen would have been ok, and they could have signed n traded rashard, instead of letting him go. unless seattle has plans for this off season.
position wise celtics
2,r,allen 5th in league, sf pierce 3rd in league pf garnett 1st in league
spurs-1g-t.parker6th in league 2.ginobuli-10 in league,duncan pf-2nd
so in fact that could also be a big 3, just a slower passed less recognized
i think the only team that can challenge the spurs is boston
unless the suns do it, i just dont like marion all that much, but phoenix is a wonderful team, but WTF, THEY LOST TO MINNESOTA
AL JEFFERSON 30PTS 23REBS,DAMN,DWIGHT HOWARD SCORED ALOT ON EM TOO, WHERES AMARES D? OR DID HE PLAY LAST NITE?
SUNS-MARION TO CAVS FOR VEARAJO,HUGHES,MARSHALL
FOR A CAVS FAN
dj hott Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
AND AL JEFFERSON IS AVERAGING BETTER STATS THEN
GARNETT, AT A YOUNGER AGE, SO IF U SAY THEY TRADED GARNETT
FOR JEFFERSON, ITS EQUAL, AND TWOLVES GOT,GREEN,TELLFAIR,GOMES,AND RATLIFF AS A BONUS,
AND THEIR OWN LOTTO PICK, NOT BAD, AS IT LOOKED FOR MCHALE,
JUST THE RECORD., AND WHAT WAS THE POINT IN GETTING AWALK?
AND NO IM NOT SAYING JEFFERSON IS A GARNETT.
SEATTLE NEEDS-THIS LINEUP
G-D.WEST RIDNOUR
G-W.ZERBIAK WATSON
F-J.GREEN WILKENS
F-K.DURANT COLLISION
C-WILCOX K.THOMAS
Hammond Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
dj hott– Amare doesn’t play D, that’s the problem. And that’s why they can’t win the title. They had a weak interior defense last season with Kurt Thomas, and now they have nothing. Their best defender in the paint in Marion, who is really a small forward. Jefferson destroyed them. Beautiful!
tha_phenom Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 8:30 pm
Gerald Green isn’t slumping and uninvolved on the bench. In fact he has been the most supportive of his teammates when he is on the bench. I’ve been very impressed by that. It seems as though the Wolves coaching staff is starting over with Gerald’s development and thus far (when he has played) he has looked good and not out of control like in the preseason. In that respect I think he is gaining confidence from this situation. If he keeps working it will only get better for him.
bballer Said,
December 9, 2007 @ 10:33 pm
eddie, what do you think about the leadership of kobe? i feel he falls into the trap of other scorers such as carmelo, ai and now possibly durant. they equate how much they score with the ability to lead a team. when i see duncan, he directs his team on offense and on defense. the teams that has a clear leader on either end of the court ends up winning championships. it doesn’t need to be the same person, but it helps.
gasol spends too much time whining about a missed call and fails to get back on d. it was battier who anchored the d previously in memphis, now no one does that job. houston has scorers in yao and mcgrady, but nobody leads the team on either end. is this the type of leadership you were referring to? houston is not missing a pg. they are missing a leader like j kidd. the nba has many skilled players, so few leaders. todays players may be more skilled and athletic, but the leadership is missing.
oden will be the next true leader in the nba. dwight howard will be another within 2 years.
Eddie Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 2:22 am
nate
Manu and Parker have not proven they can become a go to guy without Duncan for a season and when they do you can compare them to other top players until then the jury is out rather you like it or not.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 3:43 am
Great article. The Heat are far from slipping. Their TRUE leader, Dwyane Wade, is back and that’ all there is to it. When April comes along, the Heat will be right there in the mix of things. Don’t worry Eddie, your forecast won’t come into reality.
Pepe Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 4:39 am
Eddie, great post, I agree with pretty much everything but many of us still wait for the obvious thing - how do you see Kobe and Lebron as leaders of their teams?
craig beckerman Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 9:27 am
in order for kobe to be a leader he has to care more about the team and less about himself, chasing shaq out of town wasnt showing that he did, constantly asking to be traded doesnt show he cares about his team. some players mature, some players are mature like lebron and dwight howard and some players like kobe epitomize whats wrong with the nba today, to him its always showtime and hes the star.
bballer Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 10:47 am
looking at shaq now makes getting him out of lal not a bad thing after all. his salary is choking the heat’s ability to get good players around him without paying a lot in luxury taxes. you either have vets playing for the minimum or young guys who are unproven. until riley decides to go young, which he is finally doing, the team will struggle. the only reason why the heat will make the playoffs is because other teams in the east are rudderless. the lakers would be in the same boat with shaq but with a higher payroll.
kobe needs to grow up and rededicate himself to the lakers. trading him to chicago will not win him a ring. he needs to help the lakers develop into contenders. they are two seasons away from being an elite squad. ariza was a good pickup. he will soon replace radmon as a starter.
michael Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 11:05 am
Kobe plays his heart out. I appreciate that in a player. i haven’t seen many work as hard.
If my teammates did not put the same evergy and LOVE I put into the game at hand, I would not be happy with that. If they can’t take that example and learn from it to better their play, then they are selfish. Remember, your teammate has to nut it up on defense, your teammate has to crash the boards, your teammate has to dive for the loose ball, take the charge….
BEST WAY TO LEAD IS BY EXAMPLE… this is universally true
Is he what is wrong with the NBA???
I know he is not a media darling like some, and is not written up kindly, but I don’t think he is all that is wrong with the NBA.
I thought it was the long schedule, the overpaid players, the high ticket prices, the IQ levels of our superstars, the overextended playoffs, and the NBA promoting individuals, not teams.
Kobe is fun to watch. I can feed off another who is driven.
mattb Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
marion&m.banks to miami, for, jwill,u.haslem,d.wrightmark blount-&pick
miami
g-banks g-c.quinn
g-wade g-d.cook
f-p.hardaway f-r.davis
f-s.marion f-g.muoneke
c-s.oneal c-a.mourning
pick may in up a lottery for phoenix,along with atlantas lottery, and jwill off the caps, just face that san antonio is going to win it again, and will be older next year, make the trade then look like this
g-s.nash g-l.barbosa
g-r.bell g-d.wright
f-g.hill f-b.diaw
f-u.haslem f-m.beasley
f-a.stoudemire c-k.koufos
Pirri Said,
December 10, 2007 @ 5:55 pm
http://pirrimarzon.blogspot.com
Perfect comments from Mr. Johnson. I was unhappy because of Pau Gasol’s bad season, because I think he still has a lot of potencial, but is struggling at Iavaroni’s system. He may ask for a trade next days before All Star game, and make Memphis like Phoenix sytem play
nate t Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 12:02 am
Ok Eddie– explain your logic to me. Ray Allen was the best player on a team that didnt win nba titles, western conference titles, or pacific division titles, often struggled to play .500 ball, and usually didn’t make the playoffs… but he has “proven” himself, whereas Manu has not? Your criteria for proof is very odd. Maybe it’s just sour grapes because Manu had 3 rings while the Suns have none?
bobbito Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 3:30 am
would someone please ban isiah from basketball now. he’s had his time and it’s been gone a long time ago. he was a plague. we all agree on this and if you aren’t, you’re just kidding yourself.
michael Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 9:55 am
matt,
you are basically trading marion for haslem/miami’s scrubs. How does this help phoenix this year? San Antonio is aging, but no one is aging faster in the league than Steve Nash. suns have to win now.
Phoenix Suns - Steve Nash = Clippers
bad trade for the suns
Eddie Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 10:26 am
nate
would Ray Allen have rings if he played with Duncan? Give me a break. Manu Ginobili is a good inconsistent player. thats what he has been since he has come into the league. Put Manu on the teams Ray Allen played for and see what he would have done? Duncan is the major cause of his Rings and throw in Parker. The Spurs would have traded Ginobili two years ago for Allen in a heartbeat.
Eddie Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 10:29 am
bobbito
banning isiah is not the answer. he deserves to try and change the Knicks and i am glad Dolan is allowing him to do it. He tried Larry Brown and you see what happened.
nate t Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Eddie– your logic still makes no sense. So Allen would’ve won rings with Duncan, which proves he’s good, but Ginobili won rings with Duncan and that only proves how good Duncan is? If the Celts don’t win it this year, what’s the excuse for 3 supposed superstars not being able to outperform 1 superstar and two “role players?” I can use the reverse argument: if Duncan played with Rashard Lewis, Ridnour, Watson, Wilkens, and Wilcox, Seattle would’ve been a title contender– but with Allen, they were never even close.
Compare Manu’s stats so far this year to Allen’s:
Manu: 21.2 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, .478 fg%, .438 3pt%, 29.6 mins per game
Allen: 19.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, .409 fg%, .346 3pt%, 38.8 mins per game
Manu outperforms Allen in every category– even Allen’s specialty of 3 pt shooting, and does this while playing almost 10 fewer minutes per game! In addition, Manu is a better defender, and the team defending the Celts has to worry about Garnett and Pierce– two stars– and can’t focus on Allen. It’s no contest, Eddie. Do you hear that bell ringing? That’s means school is over.
Hammond Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
Nice job Nate. Way to show the Manu-hater.
James Brill Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
I think the Suns are a very good team mostly thanks to Nash’s talent and leadership, but I don’t think they should be included as one of the top teams for leadership. Amare is young and extremely talented but definitely on the immature side. His hotheaded reaction in last year’s playoffs quite possibly cost the Suns a shot at a title. And Marion spent the whole off season saying he felt disrespected and wanted to be traded. Raja has a problem with self-control sometimes. Really, Nash is the only leader they have. Contrast that with Boston or San Antonio, or even a good young team like New Orleans, where everybody gets along and plays their roles without griping.
Crick Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
a lotta times leadership is a really just a codeword for skill and winning. Garnett isn’t necessarily a better leader now than when he was with Minnesota but now he’s got a better team and they’re winning and now lots of people want to say he’s better leader. Same with Shaq. Time has caught up with him and he’s no longer unstoppable so the Heat are losing. I don’t think Shaq’s leadership ability has deteriorated, but his skills have for sure. When people lose, they get frustrated, it’s inevitable. Emeka Okafor was a great leader at Connecticut and I don’t think his mindset is any different now, but he doesn’t have the talent around him to justify people calling him a great leader. But if Okafor got traded to the Suns or Celts or Spurs, he’d be praised much more for his maturity and leadership.
Marco Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Dear Eddie,
Very nice article, I really appreciated!
But I think you are a little too hard with Manu Ginobili.
Only because he has his own way of playing baskaetball, not only catch and shoot, that doesn’t mean he is inconsistent!
He is a team player, he does all his team needs to win, and this he has always done with or without Duncan.(Obviously Duncan is a more dominant player, also for his role.)
He has proven to be a leader for the Spurs many times, we can only remember the 2005 Finals against Detroit.
He is a winner, no doubt.
I also like the leadership of Anthony Parker of the Toronto Raptors.
What do you think of his play?
Last thing about New York: It’s not the coach, they don’t have really good players, they have no team players, no unselfish players, no good defensive players, no shooters, no passers. Only undeveloped talents….what could they do?
Sorry for my bad english!
hammond Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 6:44 pm
Ah–Your Suns bias is the main reason I visit this blog once in a while. i find it very amusing. Let me get this straight: Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Amare Stoudamire, and Shawn Marion are all real stars but Ginobili and Parker have to prove they can lead a team without Duncan in order to qualify?? You don’t think Ginobili could lead a team to 24 wins (Boston’s total last year) or to 31 wins (Seattle’s)?
Kingsblade Said,
December 11, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
Frank,
“and to whomever said that the guys on the suns were nothing before steve nash should get his facts straight. the only sun who has had a longer tenure than nash in his second go around with phoenix is marion. and if memory serves me right, he was an all star before nash got there. amare was a draft pick, barbosa was in a spurs uni, diaw in a hawks uni, and hill was on the dl uprooted from his path towards greatness. and raja made himself into the player he is, he made himself into a better defender ans shooter. to make the assessment that they were nothing is a horrid statement, and an insult to guys i mentioned. he made them better, but they weren’t too bad to begin with.”
I never said they were nothing, not even close. I said that nobody thought the team was any good until Nash got there, and then I pointed out that all the guys they picked up since then have had career years since becoming as Sun. (I will exclude Hill since he is a special case)
Marion was an allstar once, and it was a shaky choice (there was an anusually large amount of debate over the selections that year), now he is a perennial automatic selection. Stoudemire was there 2 years before Nash, and whoops….the year Nash came was his best.
Raja is exactly the same guy he was before. He could always defend, but now he gets more open shots in better positions to score from so he seems like a better shooter. Do you really think he would be as effective if he went elsewhere?
The other guys you mention make my point for me soi I don’t know why you bothered.
How many guys have to suddenly become much better players when they come to Phoenix before you will finally decide that this is not coincidence and maybe Nash has something to do with it.
The same thing happens to guys that play with Kidd, yet somehow Kidd gets recognition for it.
Don’t tell someone to get their facts straight and then say things like…”if my memory serves me correctly”…and then spew out falsities. Every one of those guys has had the best year of his career as a Sun playing beside Nash. Not to mention other guys who have left. How the hell do you think Tim Thomas got another deal? Nash made him look good. Hey, what Quinton Richardson up to these days? Oh right.
Please.
nate t Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 1:57 am
Stats so far this year:
Ginobili: 21.2 ppg, 4.9rpg, 4.5apg, .478 fg%, .438 3pt%, 29.6 mpg
Ray Allen: 19.4 ppg, 4.4rpg, 3.3apg, .409 fg%, .346 3pt%, 38.8 mpg
Manu beats Allen in every single category, even Allen’s specialty of 3 pt shooting and accomplishes this while playing almost 10 fewer minutes a game. Manu is also a better defender.
trao Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 4:51 am
do u really think dirk is a leader? a leader doesn’t fail like he’s been doing last 2 seasons (although he got that mvp)
eddie Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Nate and Hammond
your two great players as you call them were 9 for 28 last night and it will get worse if the real reason (Tim Duncan) does not show up soon.
don’t get me wrong i like Tony alot and Manu a little, But they have not shown that they can play like superstars for a prolonged period of time without Duncan and until then i will stay the course with my thoughts about them.
eddie Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
great post Kingsblade. i could not have said it better.
frank Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
kingsblade–
ok, so i misread your first post, my bad.
and the falsities that you claim for me to have mentioned, consisted only of not knowing amare was in his third year when nash came in.
and at no time was i bashing nash, but just defending the players that surround him.
but if you still think jason kidd gets more recognition than nash in that department, i think the tune of nash’s two mvp’s says differently.
but while we’re on this subject–
eddie,
whose a better pg in your opinion– nash or kidd?
Kingsblade Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
That was a pretty big mistake to make considering the position you took don’t you think?
I do agree about Nash’s mvp’s, however it kind of makes my point for me.
Nash does get recognition from within the league and the immediate surrounding subculture, but for some reason all I read on numerous fan forums is how it is all the players around him making him look good. This bothers me because the evidence shows it to be the other way around.
Kingsblade Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 2:40 pm
Re: Parker and Ginobili.
Are people here really trying to say that these two are better than Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? What a laughable concept.
eddie Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Frank
Nash is better because he could score 25 a game with ease and shoot over 50 percent while still dishing out 12 dimes.
Jason’s downfall when compared to the greats will be his ability to score consistently, but i still love J kidd.
nate t Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 7:57 pm
Your Suns lost to MINNESOTA and Amare got outplayed by Al Jefferson. I guess that also “proves” that the Suns are weak. You forgot, however to mention how the Duncan-less Spurs just beat Dallas and Utah, two quality wins that are more impressive than anything Boston has done so far.
frank Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 8:33 pm
eddie,
i agree with you in that respect, but we both know that you gotta contribute on both ends to win championships.
kidd has always been and still is a better defender than nash. kidd has also led two, not so talented, nets teams to the nba championships, only to lose to our most recent dynasties(the spurs and lakers).
that said, you would still take nash in his prime against kidd?
Kingsblade Said,
December 12, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
Frank,
Kidd came out of the East to get into the finals, which is an entirely different story then getting there from the West.
The Suns as led by Nash would likely have already made the finals multiple times if they played in the East. They also would have a better shot at the spurs that way because they would have had a less strenuous route to the finals than the Spurs did. That argument is extremely fallible.
As for the defense argument…you ask if Eddie would still take Nash knowing Kidd was a better defender, but I have to ask you….would you still take Kidd knowing that you could have Nash’s shot instead? Why would you want an unreliable shot running your pick and rolls? Why would you want to allow teams to double team with their point guard? There are a lot of problems a team faces when their point guard has an unreliable outside shot. Whatever Kidd makes up on the defensive end he loses on the offense. (This is relative only to Nash of course, because he unquestionably does bring a substantial contribution to an offense)
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 12:41 am
Nash made his two MVP runs by having the ball in his hands majority of the time he’s out there on the court, which could be attributed to the free-wheeling type of offense that D’ Antoni has infused on his team. That’s not a knock on Nash since the recent trend of point guards have been overdribbling, but are less efficient in comparison to Nash. But I wonder, could Nash be as phenomenal if he were to run a more rigid type of offense? Quoting what Dallas owner Mark Cuban said, “It’s unfortunate that he can’t be an MVP for us.” Kidd does not need the ball in his hands majority of the possession to make the right pass or to set up the right play. A lot of his passes are even hockey assists - leading to better opportunities for his teammates, while credit goes to that player who made the final pass leading to the shot. Less dribble, more quick passes. This probably explains why Kidd, in spite of his exceptional playmaking, has yet to put up more than 11 assists per game in his career. Kidd will never be as good a scorer or shooter as Nash, but his greatness has been evident since he stepped on an NBA floor. He continues to adapt to and thrive in any kind of system that a particular team or coach instills. Don’t get me wrong, I respect Nash, and believe he’s worth the two Podoloff’s. I just feel like someone as good or “arguably” better was denied of his.
Kingsblade Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 3:17 am
Are you serious?
Kidd demands the ball every bit as often as Nash does, and he certainly needs the ball every possession. Nash has it a higher percentage of the time during a possession simply because his team takes less time to shoot, as they specifically look to score early (yes this part of it is a result of their system). They also run more pick and rolls which required him to hold it at times. To say that he over-dribbles is absurd. Marbury over-dribbles, Bibby over-dribbles, but Nash?
Kidd also lets the ball go earlier at times exactly because he is not always a threat. To run a successful offense the ball needs to always be in a threatening position. It forces the defense to react in some way, which is how you create open shots. Sometimes having the ball in Kidd’s hands is not a threat at all, so it needs to go where it will be. Having the ball in Nash’s hands is a big threat at all times, so the defense must react as a unit to what he is doing.
You are also making a chicken before the egg argument here in pointing out the system run by D’antoni. What would be the point of having an MVP caliber point guard and then running a rigid offense? The reason they are able to succeed in that system is Nash, just as much as the reason Nash succeeds is because of the system.
Would you take Nash or Kidd on your team and then run a rigid offense? I don’t know who would. Who has ever forced Kidd into a rigid offense either?
The Cuban quote is a bit out of contest because he was discussing that he felt like Nash had improved after leaving, not that he could not have played that way if he had stayed.
Nash also makes a huge number of hockey assist type plays. Phoenix averages 6 more assists than Jersey, but Nash only averages 2 more than Kidd. If he dominates the ball so much then where are the extra 4 assists coming from?
nate t Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 4:09 am
Kingsblade– look at the statistical comparison between Manu and Allen and tell me what is “laughable.” Allen’s inflated stats with a terrible Seattle team were good, but now that he’s in a comparable situation Manu is clearly outperforming him in every category while playing ten fewer minutes per game. Boston’s record is inflated too– they haven’t beaten a single Western conference powerhouse (Spurs, Suns, Mavs) and the best team that they have faced– the Magic– beat them.
nate t Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 4:44 am
The point guard debate is interesting, but the bigger picture might be this: The two best point guards of this era– Kidd and Nash– have zero rings between them. The two best post players of this era– Shaq and Duncan– have Eight. The two most dominant title winners in the previous era were Hakeem, another great post guy, and MJ, a shooting guard. The last truly great point to lead his team to titles was Magic, and he had the body of a small forward, as did Pippen, who often played point for the Bulls…. maybe, just maybe, the value of a small, quick, distributing point guard has been overestimated?
anthony Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
I think the talent levels of the combos parker/ginobili and allen/pierce are comparable. definitely not laughable.
parker is a top point gaurd who passes well and gets plenty of points in the paint. he has got plenty of playoff experience (winning) and is very smart. i would pick him TODAY over nash and kidd if I was building a team. actually he is a much better defender than steve nash (how could he be mvp when half his game is sub par) and a more consistent scorer than kidd. he is still underated even after winnig championships.
ginoboli has tapped deep into his potential. he flat out plays hard and smart. spurs consistently win and he has been a big part of it. he doesnt have the great numbers, but he does provide the intangibles. allen and pierce are excellent players, and ginobili can definitely be included in that conversation. allen is a great shooter, but the rest of his game is average. I don’t know much about pierce because i haven’t really followed the celtics since they’ve been losing the last couple of decades.
I am not a fan of the spurs, but I definitely respect their talent.
Kingsblade Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
The second you decided to claim that Allen is average apart from his shot is when I decided you don’t know what you are talking about on this issue. Guys who only have a shot DO NOT accomplish what Ray Allen has accomplished.
If Ginobili had to try and lead a team himself he would be completely exposed, and I dare say they would be hard pressed to win a game. Same goes for Parker…do you really think Parker has what it takes to be the best player in his team? I guess we’ll probably find out sooner or later.
I think it says enough about Pierce to simply state that he and Lebron James have formed a rivalry over the last couple of years. Could you even dream of saying that about Parker or Ginobili?
Parker is a point guard who is most effective when he scores, so to me I guess it would depend on what sort of team I am building as to which player I would take first. Most people prefer their point to be a catalyst rather than a recipient unless they have someone like Duncan to go through.
I think the only thing Parker really has on either one of Kid or Nash is his youth. I also doubt it when you say you are not a Spurs fan.
As for the mvp question..are you saying that there has never been another mvp who has been a less than stellar defender? Why do I never hear people complaining about Nowitzki’s defense? Larry Bird sure was a lock-down defender wasn’t he?
david Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
I am a Spurs fan (one of the few) and Eddie is absolutely right — without Duncan the Spurs are a .500 team at best.
However, give some credit where it is due. Parker and Ginoboli fit perfectly into the Spurs’ scheme, thus the championships. They know their roles. Would Pierce and Ray Ray fit in as well? Probably not, because of Pop’s devotion to defense. Doesn’t mean they’re not great players (although I would take Ginoboli over Allen because of his guts, not his stats).
I understand the “leadership” question and neither Parker nor Ginoboli are leaders, but neither are Allen and Pierce, in my opinion. (Neither is Dirk, no matter ow hard Avery tries.)
Leadership is like class — you have it or you don’t.
anthony Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
what is it that ray allen has accomplished exactly? other than what I already acknowledged (score alot of points) he is a premier shooter - definitely. but don’t try to sell me that he so much better than ginobili.
Actually, i just looked at their stats right now and ginobili has very similar stats to both pierce and allen. AND HE DOES IT IN 29 MINUTES COMPARED TO 39 MINUTES. Obviously he is much more efficient. So why is allen a great player and ginobili laughable??? does not make sense to me.
I am not a spurs fan, but I would not deny that they do not have good players. I am not a celtics fans, I would not also deny that they have their stars clicking like clockwork so early in the season. Celtics should not take Spurs lightly.
obviously you can win the MVP with out being a stellar defender, the MVP is a freakin popularity contest! nash is weak on d.
Kingsblade Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
Oh with that I agree completely. I would never suggest that they are anything less than very good players, I just took umbrage to people claiming they were better than Pierce and Allen. They certainly fill their roles admirably.
As for Ray Allen’s heart, he has career playoff averages of about 25 points, 5 assist and 5 rebounds. These are not really the numbers of a player without heart. They are also noticeably higher than his regular season numbers. That should also tell you something about his heart.
I don’t want to detract from Ginobili here, so for sake of fairness I will mention that his numbers rise in the playoffs as well, and he has a lot of heart. However he does it without having to deal with the oppositions best defender and a myriad of double teams like Allen has had to.
Also, in terms of leadership…both Allen and Pierce have led teams to conference finals, without the benefit of having Tim Duncan under the basket. The Bucks just missed out on the finals losing in game seven to the Sixers, and the Celtics lost to the Nets in 6.
I would dearly love to see Ginobili or Parker do something like that without Duncan, and until they even get a chance to try they should not even be compared with Allen and Pierce.
Kingsblade Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
That last post was directed at David.
Anthony,
You seem to be suggesting then that Ray Allen is nothing more than a Jason Kapono? A shooter and that’s it.
Why would anyone take the Spurs lightly? They are still the favorite because they are such a good TEAM.
Ginobili is having a career year so far, and Allen and Pierce are doing what they have always done. When Ginobili is having his best year ever, and Allen and Pierce are having a statistically weaker season than usual, wouldn’t this suggest to you that they are likely better players?
Say you take an IQ test, and every year you score 120 but this year you score 110. Then you have a friend who scores 100 every year but this year he scored 110. Would you now say that he is a smart as you are?
Kingsblade Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Why do people take it as though I am saying that Parker and Ginobili are not good players?
Of course they are good players. They are better than good. For me to say that they are not as good as two guys who statistically have about a 70-80% chance of making the hall of fame is not an insult. Stop acting as though it is.
anthony Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
we’ll agree to disagree. peace
Billy Y Said,
December 13, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
Kingsblade — when you say Ginobili would be “exposed” do you mean he would lead a poor team to 30 or so wins? Because that’s what Allen and Pierce did last year. You point out that Allen and Pierce each led their teams to conference finals once, but other than that have more than a dozen years of mediocre outcomes. Sure Manu and Parker wouldn’t win titles without Duncan, but neither could Pierce or Allen so as far as I can see that argument is a wash. Cousy couldn’t win titles without Russell and Oscar Robertson didn’t win one until Lew Alcindor came along either– do you think those guys were overrated too?
Miller Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 1:13 am
Kingsblade– Your reasoning concerning stats doesn’t necessarily work. Some would argue that since Allen and Pierce were on weak teams without other stars to compete for shots that their stats in the past were a bit inflated, whereas Manu has had to share the ball with one superstar in Duncan and an emerging star in Parker, so his stats are below what they would be if he was the main guy. In addition to that, Manu has played his entire career in San Antonio in a slow-down defense oriented approach that produces lower scoring games and consequently lower stats. Also, Allen had a “myriad of double teams” in the past, but that is no longer the case. So when people say “what would Manu or Parker do if they were surrounded by the same talent that Pierce or Allen had last year” my answer is that they’d probably do about the same that those two did, not win a hell of a lot and not make the playoffs– so how does that prove anything? Manu’s two best games this year came against strong Western conference teams when Duncan was not playing…. this doesn’t necessarily “prove” anything, but they do show that Manu doesn’t collapse into oblivion when Duncan ain’t around. Well, I guess this will all get settled come playoff time and then we all won’t have to sit around and speculate. But if the Spurs win again this year and the 3 star Celtics don’t, something’s got to give….
Eddie Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 2:17 am
5 for 17 when he had a chance to prove he is a star. Ginobli is what i thought he was. A role player and nothing else.
Miller Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 2:28 am
Give me a break– his two best teammates are out and they lose a close one and that proves he’s no good? Oh well, keep on with the naysaying. He’ll just kill the Suns in the playoffs again in the spring. and your no-defense Suns will have a nice long list of excuses about why they didn’t win it all again and Marion will leave as a free agent and Nash will grow a year older and the window will close and you will still be here talking about how the best organization in the nba is boring and, by golly, next year the Suns will finally do it…
amin Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 7:22 am
I seem to remember Parker taking over numerous games last year in their run to the finals. just abusing whoever was in front of him, and then scoring in the lane with creative finishing. his little teardrop runner is nasty, and he’s so quick. In my opinion its pretty tough to compare his game to either of the Celtics wings. As for Ginobili, he’s a nice roll player. he’s gritty, and everything else, but there’s no question in my mind that the spurs take either Pierce or Allen in his stead in less than a heartbeat.
Eddie: What do you make of the Warriors leadership? do you think the dubs’ primary leader is Boom Dizzle, or Captain Jack? I love that team, and its great to watch a group of guys who have so much fun playing the game together.
great column, as always.
amin Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 7:25 am
by the way, I see that you addressed Jackson briefly above. but I can’t get enough of the warriors, so…
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
Eddie, Ginobli ain’t a role player. Players can have bad games you know. Ginobli is a natural leader and a fierce competitor. Even more admirable, is how he submits to what his team asks of him; whether that be coming off the bench or taking a backseat from his more heralded teammates. There’s not a better leader to have on a team, someone who’s willing to set his ego aside for everyone else’s sake. He is valuable to the Spurs just as Tony is and ofcourse, Tim. TD gets the most credit, which if i may emphasize, is well deserved; but what makes San Antonio very formidable is that they truly are one unit committed to winning. There’s just a lot of character guys in that roster. Shifting back to my argument, Argentina won the World Basketball Championships not long ago and they had Manu to thank for. He’s proven that he can carry a team on his back. If you hate Ginobili the person, which I have reason to think you do, please don’t hate on Ginobili the player. Come to think of it, maybe you’re right, he’s just a role player after all. His part just happens to be that of a leader.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
Do we seem to have forgotten who usually bails the Spurs out from tight playoff situations with clutch baskets, clutch passes and clutch free throws? Yeah, i thought so.
Kingsblade Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
Leading your national team is not the same thing. It may as well be a different sport.
Gasol led his national team to success, Kirilenko led Russia to gold at Eurobasket, Jasikevicius took Lithuania to a bronze at eurobasket didn’t he? He couldn’t even get playing time in the NBA. You don’t see any of them leading NBA teams, so what does it have to do with Ginobili?
Furthermore, you can’t accuse people of hating someone just because they don’t think a good player is a star player. You are being ridiculous. Personally I am much more likely to hate Duncan for keeping Phoenix out of the finals, just like I hate Shaq for taking titles away from the Kings.
Kingsblade Said,
December 14, 2007 @ 10:23 pm
btw…Bobby Jackson bailed the kings out of a couple of tough spots during the playoffs a few years ago. Should we put him in the top 50 all-time now and save him a spot in the hall of fame?
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 15, 2007 @ 12:16 am
Oh yes it is, it’s still the same banana, it’s still the same sport. We call it basketball isn’t it? Besides we’re talking about leadership qualities and abilities on the basketball court. The only reason Sarunas Jasikevicius has not made an impact in the NBA is because nobody wants to take a chance and give him the opportunity to perform. And he came in the league at 28, no spring chicken. Maybe he’s lost a step or two, but in my opinion, can still run an NBA team better than most starters in the league. If only someone would just give him a shot.
Picture this, isn’t it a lot tougher to LEAD your team and beat Team USA, a collection of NBA elite superstars? Don’t downplay what Ginobili has done and call it different. The guy is a player and a star at that. He just chooses to blend in and win. If he had that same I’m-going-to-get-mine mentality then he’d probably be averaging in the high 20’s however, he may not be as successful team-wise. Where his from, it’s about team play and team victory forget about personal accolades. Now that’s leadership at it’s finest.
And please, don’t speak for Mr. Johnson, unless you work part-time as his PA. It’s been out in the league, people dislike Manu for his playing style, something they dubbed as “dirty.” To say Manu is nothing but a role player obviously is not an assessment on his skill per se.
Also, you’re being elementary with your rebuttal comparing Bobby Jackson’s playoff heroics to Manu’s and sarcastically suggesting that he be considered a star as well because of it. C’mon you know what I mean. I meant the whole package. Manu performs on most nights INCLUDING the playoffs and his skill set as well as basketball IQ are exceptional. I hope it’s a lot clearer now. For the record, I love B-Jax.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 15, 2007 @ 12:22 am
Now who’s being ridiculous.:)
Miller Said,
December 15, 2007 @ 3:48 am
amin– there’s another difference between Ginobili, Pierce, and Allen: Pierce and Allen will make 16 mil each this year while Ginobili will make 9 mil. That leaves the Spurs a very good player plus 7 mil to do other things. Nowadays in the nba managing the cap is of central importance and the Spurs have done it better than anyone for the past few years. At the end of this season, Horry, Barry, and Finley”s contracts are up and the Spurs will have close to 15 mil to play with in the free agent market. Boston is over the cap this year and will be over next year too. If Boston doesn’t do it this year, the chances are they could face an even stronger San Antonio team in 08-09.
Miller Said,
December 15, 2007 @ 4:02 am
More salary stuff: Pierce & Allen will cost a combined 32 mil this year. That’s slightly more than the combined salaries of Ginobili, Parker, Oberto, Bowen, and Elson. Pierce & Allen are good but they ain’t that good.
Kingsblade Said,
December 15, 2007 @ 9:15 pm
It is still you.
FIBA and the NBA are very different games. They don’t even have the same rules. You just have a thing for Ginobili. I understand this. One of my all-time favorite players was Rex Chapman, and you should have heard me at times infuriating my friends by claiming he was the best 2 in the league.
28 is pretty much an athletes peak by the way, so to say Jasikevicius has lost a step is pretty funny. He saw the court and did nothing with his time. What about the others I mentioned? Other teams have beaten the US as well. Should whoever played best for them be a candidate to join Ginobili in the hall of fame?
There are a huge number of players in the NBA who play unselfishly and work for team victories without being stars…they are called role players
Oddly enough every team has them, just Ginobili happens to be one of the better ones.
You know….back then Bobby Jackson used to perform most nights including the playoffs too. He also had a good skillset and IQ and his energy was huge for that team.
However using him as an example is slightly over the top, so heres another one for you using the same team. Who are usually the three main components of those Kings teams? (I say usually because I think most people underrate the importance of Divac) They were Webber, Bibby, and Stojakovic. What big stars Bibby and Peja became. What happened to them when Webber got hurt and later traded? Both were exposed for the role players they are. I am a fan of both guys, but both received accolades they didn’t deserve, and both proved they were not stars in their own right when they had to try and lead the team without a real star creating space for them.
This is exactly what Parker, and especially Ginobili, are destined for.
Miller Said,
December 16, 2007 @ 3:34 am
Kingsblade– would you say the same thing about Allen Iverson? The excuse before was he didn’t have enough talent around him, but now in Denver he is surrounded by talent and his team is still underperforming… why is that? If Parker or Ginobili shot the fg% that Iverson shoots almost every year, they would be crucified by the critics, but Iverson often gets a free pass despite being a mediocre defender, a low percentage shooter, a poor role model (we talking about practice man practice), and a so-called superstar whose former team probably got slightly better after he left.
Miller Said,
December 16, 2007 @ 3:41 am
Your Sacramento analogy is missing one hugely important component: the Kings never won a title, and never even won the western conference, whereas the big three of the Spurs did it together three different times.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 17, 2007 @ 4:06 am
Not when you enter the NBA at 28. And you have to adjust to the pace of the NBA game. Give him (Jasikevicius) a starter’s playing time and he’ll make me look like a pro scout and you a hater. Had he entered the league at his early 20’s believe me he’s one of the best to come from Europe. Are you for real? Rex Chapman? Now that’s a role player in every sense of the word. No offense, but the truth hurts. One-dimensional players don’t qualify as stars. Ginobili can do just about everything on the court. It’s like you’re saying Pippen doesn’t deserve to be in the hall of fame coz he didn’t win a title without Jordan and his team didn’t fare as well with His Airness aboard. I say this because he played unselfishly too and cared about team victories with Jordan around. It was only during MJ’s absence when his stats blew up to superstar level. Do we demote him to being a role player for deferring to MJ? People still consider him a star. Precisely, because of the talent, skill and leadership that he has. And so is Ginobili. Like I said, he is as instrumental as his co-stars in winning their rings. It’s agruable that Mchale and Parish couldn’t have won even one title without Bird. Does that make them role players? Even Kobe Bryant can’t deny his admiration for the Spur guard. I guess that makes us (Kobe and I) both ridiculous. Then so be it.
Kingsblade Said,
December 17, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
This is my last post here because you obviously have no intention of even trying to understand what I am saying.
You ask me if I am for real because I liked Rex Chapman as a player? So what? People are only allowed to be fans of superstars now? Either you are not even paying attention to what I am saying or you are beyond understanding…The fact that Rex Chapman is a role player WAS EXACTLY MY POINT!!! I am aware of the fact that he was a role player, but because I liked him I inflated his importance in conversations with my friends. You think you are telling me something I don’t know by calling him that? Why would the truth hurt when it was precisely my point.
Just try to understand what people are saying before responding instead of rushing a reply because you feel I have insulted the honor of your hero.
The difference between you and me is that I recognized that my favorite player was a role player and I joked about how it would make my friends mad to call him the best 2. This is kind of what you are doing now, except that you, on the other hand, are serious about Ginobili.
Now your point about Pippen….he DID perform without Jordan, but Ginobili has done nothing of the sort, and that is the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS CONVERSATION WE HAVE BEEN HAVING!. Until Ginobili can prove something then it is a joke to compare him to players that have.
Robert Horry has been instrumental in winning a whole bunch of rings for different teams. Is he a superstar too? Derek Fisher was instrumental for the Lakers, is he going to the hall of fame?
Going back to the Bulls…Toni Kukoc had a pretty similar status for the the Bulls to what Ginobili is now for the Spurs….do you think he is a bonafide star? He was pretty important for their teams too.
Oh, and Jasikevicius got more than 20 minutes a game when he came over. That is more than enough time for plenty of other guys to prove themselves, so what was his problem? Why would they give an unproven player more minutes than that right out of the gate? He got more than would be considered fair.
PS:
Career Averages:
Rex Chapman - 14.6 PPG, 2.7 APG, 2.5 RPG, 1.5 TO
Manu Ginobili - 13.7 PPG, 3.4 APG, 3.9 RPG, 2.0 TO
Not all that different LOL although Manu is having a better year than usual so far this year.
Kingsblade Said,
December 17, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
btw…I notice you have nothing to say about my comparison to Bibby and Stojakovic.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 17, 2007 @ 7:27 pm
This ain’t no numbers game and yes I completely understood your point. Don’t be silly. What I was trying to convey was that the fact that you think highly of Rex Chapman makes your evaluating skills suspect. You judge players probably because you share the same state with them or they play in Sacramento. I can never recognize him as a role player like you say Chapman is. Here’s why, Ginobili is a complete player. You can’t even compare him with Bibby and Stojakovic, who both have restrictions in their games. Both can’t play defense even if their lives depend on it. Bibby is not even an elite playmaker when he’s supposed to be the point man. Manu comes up with not only more creative plays, but more importantly, the right plays. Stojakovic folds in big games. He scores in bunches during the first 45 mins of the game and then what? Hence, I ignored your statement because it’s not even close. Here’s what, Manu is not even my top guy. I’m the biggest D-Wade fan, but I just give credit where credit is due. It’s not a numbers game, you’re better than that. You have been watching too much fantasy basketball probably. It’s the player’s impact on his team and the game itself that counts. To discredit Ginobili and deny him of star status is either being ignorant to the game of basketball or being prejudice. Let this be my final post as well.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 17, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
Please save the Horry, Fisher and what have you arguments…Give me a complete player for comparison and then we can talk. The guys you’ve mentioned are role players, obviously.
Kingsblade Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 2:52 am
OF COURSE THEY ARE ROLE PLAYERS. THAT IS MY POINT!! Everything you keep claiming Ginobili has accomplished I have shown you someone else who has done the same, and they are all role players. A few years ago everyone though Bibby and Peja were stars too…and look at them now.
You call my judgment suspect because I happen to like a certain player? Stop, just stop. I cannot believe that anyone anywhere believes that a player has to be a star to have fans. You say I am “judging players” because of where they play and have poor evaluation skills, which just shows you aren’t listening. I said he was one of my favorite players and then said he was a role payer. How is this a poor evaluation. Especially when you seem to agree with my evaluation when you called him a role player, which was my exact phrasing even.
By the way, He never played in Sac, and I am not even an American, so which state would you say I shared with anyone? All this talk of judging people by inappropriate standards and you start tossing out nonsense like this. Well done. But maybe I have just been “watching too much fantasy basketball” (what does that even mean…what would you watch?)
BTW…Some of the most popular players I can think of are nowhere near being stars, so once again…please think before you speak.
Your judgment however is suspect because you want to take a very good role player and claim he is a star, on par with guys headed for the hall of fame. The only reason anyone ever talks about him at all is because they won some titles…because of Tim Duncan.
Then you go on about it not being a numbers game, but guess what….star players GET NUMBERS. When a player has role player numbers, chances are he is a role player.
I really wasn’t going to post again but your calling my judgment suspect because I happen to be a fan of a certain player was the most ignorant thing I had read in a long time, so I had to reply.
You can say I am wrong for my opinion on Ginobili all you want, but in the end it is a legitimate opinion where we can agree to disagree, whereas saying I have poor judgment for being a fan of a player, just because he was not a superstar, is ignorant.
I guess though, since Manu has no weakness in his game whatsoever, I will just wait and look forward to his forthcoming legendary duels with LeBron and Kobe when he finally gets to lead a team of his own.
I have never discredited Ginobili anything, but there is no way to convince me that he is a star in his own right
….and here’s another for you since you are infatuated with the all-rounders (read: ok at everything not great at anything). Anthony Parker puts up similar numbers to most of Ginobili’s years, is considered an all around player, and frequently makes plays that impact the outcome of games…even with hustle alone so he loses out on numbers too. Should we save a place for him in the hall? LOL
Miller Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
Comparing Ginobili’s situation to that of Kukoc just doesn’t ring true. Yes they both played with great future hall-of-famers in Jordan & Duncan, but that’s where the similarities end. Pippen was the most versatile swing player of his era and excelled on offense & defense. The Spurs have no on like him. Dennis Rodman was the greatest rebounder of his era– again, the Spur teams that Ginobili won rings with had nobody even remotely as effective. Kukoc clearly was surrounded by much more talent than Ginobili. And the Bibby/Peja comparison is also hollow– neither one of those guys have a track record of big wins on the professional level. Ginobili lead teams to championships in europe AND lead his Argentinian team to an Olympic Gold against a US team that included Duncan & Iverson & Wade & Amare (who rarely got off the bench cuz he doesn’t play D)– back then people were saying, “oh yeah, let’s see what Ginobili does in the olympics without Duncan there to save him…” well, we saw, didn’t we?
Kingsblade Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
Please read the whole thread. I have discussed his FIBA successes at least twice already and don’t feel the need to do it again. There are a ton of guys who have led teams to success in FIBA competition that nobody considers stars. Why is Ginobili?
The Kukoc comparison makes plenty of sense. In fact, if everyone around him was so much better than those around Ginobili then he would have had LESS of a chance to do what Ginobili has done.
To say that Bibby/Peja had no big wins is false. They were denied a championship ONLY because of how good the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were. They are also a good example because they are 2 guys who looked as good as they did because of the presence of Webber.
Kingsblade Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
It also doesn’t “ring true” to call a player with role player accomplishments a star and compare with likely hall of fame players.
Miller Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
i still don’t get what Ray Allen’s accomplishments are that are so overwhelming: he helped one team that had lots of players to the eastern conf finals many years ago and lost. Other than that, his teams have mostly not made the playoffs and never been a threat to do any serious damage. Sure, he’s a very good shooter, but so is Peja and you consider him a role player.
Miller Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Plus he’s got Phoenix Sunsitis– doesn’t play much D.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 10:43 pm
Dont’ be silly skill-wise, leadership-wise the guys you compared are without a doubt role players. That’s my point!!!:) Can’t you take a minute and evaluate Manu’s game before comparing it to the Horry’s, Fisher’s, etc. Please. A complete player. You’re right in the sense that the players you keep mentioning are role players, but definitely wrong in putting Manu’s name in the same breath as them. Don’t deny the talent you’re seeing from Manu just to prove me wrong. Just to insist on your point.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 10:53 pm
There you go with your silly reply. I never meant you can’t be a fan of a role player. Please stop putting words in my mouth. Let me explain to you in the simplest way, so listen. I said refrain from comparing Chapman and the rest of them players (yes, including Bibby and Stojakovic, even if some thought they were stars). You’re the one who’s not reading getting all emotional before comprehending. I mentioned the Bibby and Stojakovic having restrictions in their game didn’t I? Thus, they can’t be considered stars. Also, I never said Chapman played for Sacramento. You have been putting falsities in your post just to sound right. I said your judgement on Ginobili is suspect because anyone who would compare him to the likes of obvious role players is being biased. I’ll say this again, please take a minute and watch the talent, skill and leadership unfolding in front of your very eyes before discrediting Manu’s value to the Spurs rings and his status as a legit NBA star. Had Manu been given more minutes throughout his career instead of coming off the bench for the most part, then maybe we can get into the numbers game if that’s your basis for greatness.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 18, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
Did Anthony Parker ever lead a national team or NBA team to a championship, including making clutch PLAYOFF plays in his life? LOL This is not even worth my time anymore. Like I said it’s not about the numbers. It’s about talent, skills and leadership. Before A. Parker has those qualities then you can come right back at me. Please enough with comparisons of role players. Can’t you just not accept the fact that Ginobili is that good than coming up with weak points of references. I mean compare Anthony Parker with Ginobili? With what both players have been through and accomplished throughout their careers? You serious? Or are you just desperate…
Kingsblade Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 12:23 am
How is it desperation when it is so easy?
If you still haven’t figured out what I am doing with the comparisons, I am showing you how he fits in with the role players, and not with the stars. I have shown you role players who lead their national teams to great success. I have shown you role players who perform similarly to Ginobili on their NBA teams, I have shown you role players who have had similar opinions expressed about them during their career. Yet you keep crying for me to compare him to a complete player…the problem is if I compare him to what you call a complete player then he does not compare. Thus my pointing out the absurdity of your position by then comparing him to LeBron and Kobe.
You act as though I am insulting Ginobili by comparing him to guys like Parker, but in truth they are just a championship away from having the same status he has. If they traded places I might have someone else arguing with me about how Parker is a star.
You say things about talent and skill, but what makes you think that he has more talent than Paul Pierce and Ray Allen? He certainly does not have their skill level and you cannot compare their leadership abilities BECAUSE HE HAS NEVER HAD TO LEAD AN NBA TEAM. There is no basis for comparison. At this point they are likely hall of fame candidates, and he is not.
No you never said that Chapman played in SAC, but he was the only guy I mentioned liking and you gave two possible explanations for my evaluation of players. Both were impossible, so I pointed out the impossibility of both. You aren’t big on modal logic I guess, but most people aren’t so we’ll set that aside.
I began the discussion with a legitimate opinion on Ginobili as a player that happens to be shared by many including the writer of this blog who one would have to consider as a fairly knowledgeable expert. You changed into attacks on me instead of my position, which is ignorant, which I again pointed out. Not really a lot of emotion involved.
The truth is that there are number of “role players” around the league past and present that I, and many other, would happily take before Manu, and you can call me biased if you want, but if you can’t even point out what my bias is then all your cries of my being biased are illegitimate. Simply stating my opinion that I do not think he is as good as you do is not a bias.
Obviously you think I am wrong, and I think you are wrong. Luckily I have people more knowledgeable than either of us in my corner on this issue.
david Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 10:41 am
Both of you guys write so well I hardly dare to express an opinion. Being a Spurs fan and living in SA I get to watch them often. Manu is dearly loved here because of his hustle. You can throw out (or in) all the stats, but sometimes they don’t show the true impact of a player. For example, turnovers in the first quarter do not matter as much as in the last 2 minutes, yet they carry equal weight. ANd Manu had a critical one against the Suns in the last few seconds.
Manu is a scorer, not a shooter. And he sacrifices his body not only to penetrate but also to draw charges (a whole other blog, I’m sure). And it all drives Pop nuts, because there are stretches where he will make several critical errors in a row trying to make something happen and just get out of control.
Is he a star? WHy not just call him a star role player? I love the Spurs and Manu but I don’t think he can lead a team in the NBA, but I think most teams would be glad to have him.
Why don’t you debate Dirk Nowitsk as a star/roll player?
Kingsblade Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
I agree with you completely that he is a very good player and any team would be glad to have him.
He absolutely works hard and can have an impact in any game he plays in. I can even see why many people might really love his game. It is also equally easy to see why many don’t.
My only objection is when people want to compare him to guys like Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.
What the Spurs have going for them is a very good ability to function as a team. What they lack in star power aside from Duncan, they make up in every other facet of the game, so good on them in that regard. They are like the Pistons, only they have Duncan. I bet it would be interesting to see what the Pistons could to if they were able to pick Duncan up lol.
david Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
or any team for that matter
Miller Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
I’m sure we’ll never agree, but I’ll add one more post and be done with it. If you consider FIBA to be practically a different sport, then consider what Manu had to overcome when he joined the NBA at a relatively advanced age after excelling in Europe and Argentina. Even Duncan and Pierce could not dominate when suddenly forced to adjust to FIBA rules.
The arguments about stats and winning teams could go on forever– I think all basketball fans use them to try and justify their opinions. I’m guilty of that sometimes for sure. But the thing that stills bugs me concerning the Spurs is that there is sort of this opinion floating around out there that they’re not all that good. People often argue on this website whether Kobe or Lebron are the best players in the league and I know lots of fans who think KG is better than Duncan, but then when assessing the incredible success of the Spurs, they say it’s all due to Duncan.
If he’s responsible for all of that success with only the help of role players around him, then shouldn’t he clearly be called the best in the NBA? I work with a guy who is absolutely certain than Amare is better than Duncan, Marion is better than Ginobili, Nash is better than Parker, Bell is better than Bowen, and Barbosa is better than Finley– clearly, something about this opinion has to be incorrect, otherwise the Spurs’ serial success over the Suns for the past 4 or 5 years would have to be considered a complete fluke, which I seriously doubt it is.
Kingsblade Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
Yeah, good point.
About the only team I can think of that might not be better by trading their best big for Duncan would be Boston, and not because I think that Garnett is better than Duncan but because I think Garnett’s high post style works better with Pierce and Allen.
Although Howard has become a bit of a beast hasn’t he.
david Said,
December 19, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
Yes, just still a little raw. I am friends with Ian Mahinmi — same thing. Very raw, but watch out for him in the next few years.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 20, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
It was never meant to be a personal attack Kingsblade. My apologies if it ever seemed that way. By the way, I said bias because it’s always easier to take a former pro baller’s and pro columnist’s side, which possibly could have influenced your take on this subject and clouded your assessment on Manu’s game. But I guess we’ll never agree on this. However, for my parting shot, I’d have to say that the Spurs would not have been as successful with either Pierce and Allen on their team. Yes, I am claiming that Manu is not only a better fit for the Spurs, but is a better player than the two current Celtics regardless. With Pierce, you have the same intensity, toughness and defense but, you’re giving up basketball discipline, team play and exceptional playmaking. On the other hand, with Allen, you have the same shooting (probably even better), athleticism, discipline and savvy, but you’re giving up toughness. I know toughness is a debatable concept, but I have never seen anybody cry, publicly at that, about a player’s (Bruce Bowen) defensive style of play than Ray Allen. I’m not even sure that popular opinion suggests that Allen is clutch. Also, the Bucks team he played on had better chances to win the east in 2001 but lost to a player with a bigger heart, Iverson. I said player instead of team, because Iverson almost single-handedly willed the Sixers to victory. Allen could have done the same had he wanted to, cuz he was clearly the most talented among the big three (with the Big Dog and Sam). I just had to mention Iverson because Manu has that similar passion as well as that relentless and fearless approach to a basketball game that the Answer possesses. I agree that Manu doesn’t compare to Kobe and King James, but I still believe he’s one of the better STARS in the NBA.
Kingsblade Said,
December 21, 2007 @ 12:09 am
Everyone cries about Bowen’s defense. Many who’s toughness is considered beyond reproach. I also get tired of people defending him. When guys who regularly face the best defensive player on whichever team they play call you dirty you probably are. These guys face the worst of it every game, so it has to be pretty bad for multiple guys to say it repeatedly.
Either Bowen is dirty or he has the worst body control of any professional athlete to ever play at the top level of their game. 15 years ago he would have gotten his ass kicked for the kind of things he does now.
But I suppose this is a topic for a new blog.
However…if you are going to claim that Manu is a better player than either of those guys and start comparing him to guys like Iverson then I hope you realize that you are part of a very small minority…and I personally think you’re crazy
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 21, 2007 @ 9:19 pm
That makes you even more insane. Fifteen years ago was when the league allowed more physical type of basketball and not only would Bowen thrive, but he would have been respected. Allen would have been criticized for opening his mouth instead of just playing the game the way Michael Jordan did despite having to deal with the Detroit Bad Boys who BLUNTLY tried to hurt him as compared to mere allegations about Bowen’s antics. You accuse me of things and yet it is you who resorts to personal attacks, which makes me think even more that you’re just a fan who watches the game and salivate on stats, but is not a student of the game. Manu is a better leader and player than both those two current Celtics who have had so-so careers and have never gone far in the playoffs. Even R.C. Buford or Popovich would probably decline from acquiring Pierce or Allen in exchange for Manu at this point in their careers. Manu has delivered and won championships both because of Duncan and to a certain extent, not only because he played with Duncan. He carried the Spurs in most occassions during the playoffs. I bet even Duncan would attribute to some degree, their winning championships to Manu’s heroics after he committed several free throw blunders, missed some big shots and put his team in critical situations and Manu had to pick up the slack. Just like Kobe did for the Lakers even if that Laker team was said to have been dominant because of Shaq. Little do they know, it’s the Kobe’s and yes, the Manu’s, who elevates a solid team to the next level. So goes with the 80’s Lakers (led by Magic in spite of Abdul-Jabbar’s dominating presence) and the 2006 Miami Heat (led by Wade in spite of Shaq’s dominating presence).
Kingsblade Said,
December 22, 2007 @ 3:07 am
lol…overreact much? Which personal attack are getting excited about? The crazy thing? The little winky face is supposed to let you know I’m joking.
I also am not sure what it is I am supposedly accusing you of.
Anyways, there is a big difference between a hard foul and an attempt to injure. Hard fouls were a part of the game then, certainly. The difference is that if Jordan was shooting and you stuck your foot under him trying to take him out like Bowen does you can bet your bottom dollar someone would have to pay for it. The Pistons (and others) regularly hammered guys, but nobody was trying to injure anyone…just take them out of their normal game. Even Laimbeer had better body control than Bowen apparently has.
Duncan would probably attribute “to some degree” their winning in 99 to Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott too…both pretty good players, but what is your point? If he “carried the Spurs in MOST occasions” then where is his Finals MVP? Even Parker has one of those, and he isn’t even one of your beloved “complete players.”
It was funny too how you decided to compare Ginobili to Kobe, Magic, and Wade. Good one. It gave me a good chuckle anyways.
Most people consider the conference finals going pretty far. Most people also think they are both solid hall of fame candidates…not exactly so so careers.
Nevermind though…I’ll just go back to “salivating on stats,” I haven’t looked at them for at least an hour after all and I’m getting antsy.
david Said,
December 22, 2007 @ 11:33 am
I just want to say that I haven’t enjoyed a tete a tete like this since both of my in laws were screaming at each other
At least I understand this — my in laws scream in Chinese Lol
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 25, 2007 @ 8:36 pm
Kindly read one of your previous posts so you’ll know what i mean bout that accusing thing. You gotta be kidding me. You called me out for making it a personal attack on you silly. Moving on, the Pistons? Not trying to hurt nobody back in the day? That’s something to give me a good “chuckle” as well. You really have to do more than just read stats.:) But since you’re all “antsy” bout it then by all means… There you go again comparing Elliot and who else. Why do you JUST keep comparing what they brought on certain occassions when my point is, there’s more to that. I mean look at Ginobili’s talent, skill and leadership and his value to the Spurs before saying how this and this did that so they should be considered stars as well. It’s different when you only make winning shots or plays on certain occassions (a la Horry, Fisher, Elliot and what have you) in comparison to that of being a complete player who not only makes winning shots or plays but does it on a regular and be a dominating presence. I don’t mind it being funny to you. Not from somebody who in his own words claims that he believes or wants to believe that Chapman is the best guard out there. I respect your opinion never thought it funny, or at least was trying my best not to laugh. I’ll just let Ginobili’s career do the talking. Happy holidays.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 10:15 pm
By the way, Tony Parker is included in my list of stars contrary to your opinion that both Manu and him are mere role players. That’s an injustice to what these guys has brought to the table. Since your crazy bout numbers, then let’s play it your way. Check out this young season’s stats from Pierce, Allen and Manu, considering that all three have to play alongside very good teammates. It’s also worth mentioning how Manu has been playing at far less minutes than the two Celtics and yet he has accomplished similar figures across the board. I hate that this argument had to turn out like this, but all I’m trying to say is that if you consider both Allen and Pierce among the NBA’s elite, then you should feel obligated to give Manu his due, that of being considered a bonafide NBA star.
Omar Aberilla Said,
December 26, 2007 @ 11:06 pm
My bad, the eastern finals is no small feat. Don’t get me wrong, I never discounted their status in the league. Not cuz I think someone is better necessarily means they are not good. Nonetheless, so so because they could easily have achieved more with the basketball tools that they have. The whole point here is we can mention all three in similar fashion.
Deni Said,
December 27, 2007 @ 10:30 am
This is a terrible article, full of cliches and non-sensical statements. Get yourself an editor and stop deleting critical comments.
Kingsblade Said,
January 12, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
I can’t believe you came on here on Christmas day to shlep your nonsense.
If you ever end up back on here to read this…I never said that I thought Chapman was the best player in the league, I said I annoyed my friends by arguing that he was. There is a VERY big difference between the two statements.
I am also amused how you claim I am nothing but a stat guy when all I have done is use them to make a point. You keep saying is that I am not giving Ginobili his due, but you have never given me any reason to believe otherwise except to say things like ‘trust me he is a star’. ‘Trust me he is a complete player’. Ginobili is this, Ginobili is that, but why should I trust you? Yopu have yet to give me any reason whatsoever.
AS for this year and Ginobili putting up numbers like they are….I already adressed that in an earlier post somewhere and you ignored it, so I don’t know why you brought it up again, but read back and you’ll see my response to that.
Ginobili has never proven himself to be a leader or a star payer who can carry a team on his back consistently. Sure he does it once in a while, but there are a hundred guys around the league who can do it sometimes. Maybe he does it more regularly that most, but he as never been close do doing it consistently as the leader of a team. Hell, even Acie Earl had one 40 point game.
I doubt you will read this…I only did because I clicked on this blog by accident instead of the more recent one. Oh well, I guess I’ll never know what “accusations” I have been making.