“The game would be easy for MJ, Bird and Magic nowadays”
How about you for Bulls coach? You were a floor leader. Would Pippen be a good choice?
Thanks for the endorsement but I have no interest in getting back into coaching at this time. Pippen would be a person for mystique, but doesn’t have any coaching experience and hasn’t expressed interest in everyday coaching.
Should Shannon Brown and Larry Hughes be coached to be the Bulls’ point guard? Hinrich cannot penetrate or pass to the post. Is that the reason Chandler was a flop in Chicago?
Neither one of those guys are pure or natural point guards so you’re better off sticking with Hinrich and seeing if he improves his point guard skills. A couple of years ago, before injuries, he was a very good point guard and was invited to USA Basketball tryouts. Chandler wasn’t a flop in Chicago. He was young and inexperienced and still developing as a player. Chris Paul is so good for him. The system in New Orleans is great for him also.
After all these years, what is you feeling towards the Wellesley police department for the way they treated you? Was it racial profiling?
I had no ill feelings towards Wellesley police then and still don’t. Things like that happen all the time to regular African- Americans and other minorities but doesn’t garner media attention if there’s no celebrity involved. Racial profiling is in our society, but I think that event was more of mistaken identity than racial profiling. Even after the event, I chose to stay in Wellesley and became good friends with the police department and community leaders.
Could you have done a better job running the Knicks than Isiah did if you were blind-folded for the entire 4 1/2 years just as you were blind-folded during your Slam Dunk Contest victory?
Funny! Everyone can say they would have done a lot of things different after you see the mess that the Knicks are in now. It goes back to Scott Layden, the GM before Isiah, and snowballed after that. Isiah made some bad personnel decisions, but he did draft well. When you’re over the salary cap and play in New York, people want results now. So Isiah tried to do that, but the pieces didn’t fit together and he didn’t do a good job coaching them. We’ll see what Mike D’Antoni does with the same pieces.
Is it a good solution for the Phoenix Suns to add a new coach instead of Mike D’Antoni?
If the coach doesn’t feel wanted or doesn’t have the support of upper management after very successful years there, then it’s time for all parties to move on. And that’s what D’Antoni did by going to the Knicks. It’s going to be interesting who they hire to play that style… Or a different style because of the age of Nash and O’Neal.
I have a question… I consider Tim Duncan the best power forward ever, but many would laugh at that opinion. What is your opinion on Tim. Is he better than Sir Charles, Malone and McHale?
I would have to put him in the Top 2 slightly behind McHale. I played with McHale and he was unstoppable in the post. And was a great defender. And think of the players he played against in those days. Sir Charles, Malone, Worthy, Horace Grant, Rodman, Tom Chambers, Oakley… There is a big list of great players that played power forwards on offense and defense during the 80s and early 90s. Duncan has four rings and McHale has three rings. Love Duncan, but McHale is my man.
I wanted to know your opinion on Steve Nash. As I reflect on his past seasons, especially his playoff series, I often wonder why his play is to held to such high regard. He no longer can consistently outscore the opposing point guard and defensively he is a liability. Why is he a perennial All-NBAer and All-Star when his defensive play is non-existent?
I think it is what he did for the Suns team. He made players better. The system was perfect for him and he used it to his advantage. Nash has never been a great defender, so that’s not new. I used to love playing against Nash because he wasn’t a great defender and had my best games against him. He got better as he got older, but the key is that he’s getting older. Fans like him and that’s why he gets voted in. He does make the Suns go, so he deserves all the awards and accomplishments he has received.
Do you feel that the basketball sideshow And1 sends a bad message to the young kids? It shows the kids that trying to over dribble and throwing the basketball off of people’s heads is more important than learning how to hit a mid-range jump shot. Or do people understand that it’s more of a circus sideshow rather than basketball?
I think it’s basketball entertainment, but not how you want kids to view the way the game is played. It shows bad habits and things you can’t do in a real game. It’s fun to watch if you use it as that. The guys who play are very talented and know the game, but they understand that is entertainment also. So if young kids want to learn fundamentals by watching a game, I suggest they watch women’s college basketball.
What is it like playing in the NBA? What was your drive in succeeding in this league? In addition, what was your food meal plan like (in terms of calories, categories of food) during the season and playoff series?
Playing in the NBA is the best of everything. The best players, arenas and fans. My motivation and drive was that I wanted to be the best that I could be and if that got me to NBA that was great. And once I got there, I knew other players wanted to be in my position, so I had to always work extra hard to make sure I was at the top of my game. You eat as healthy as possible to maintain your weight during the season because you lost so much playing over 100 games a year. You ate good carbs and and tried to refuel before and after the games. Recovery was the key to being a successful player because the games and practices where everyday for eight months.
This year’s playoffs have been the most physical playoffs in a long time, and I’m loving it. It seems nowadays that players, refs and even announcers overreact to hard fouls and physical play. Do you feel that the league should try to move back a little to a more physical style of play that would create more rivalries? And how do you think todays NBA stars would handle a more physical game? Guys like MJ, Malone and Barkley would go right at the physical play. How would LBJ and Chris Paul react if they got the physical abuse that those former NBA stars received?
There’s a difference between physical and dirty play. When I played in the 90s, the game was very physical. Players drove to basket and knew there was going to be some contact and layups were not allowed against very good teams. Because of the rule changes and the way fans view the game, they don’t want much physical play. They want more flowing basketball games, which takes out the physical nature of players at times and then when you see a hard foul, it’s called a flagrant. MJ, Bird and Magic played in those physical days and that was how the game was played. The game nowadays would be easy for them because they would live at the foul line. Guys like Barkley, Oakley, Rodman, Xavier McDaniel and those types of players would be in foul trouble now because the game is not as physical. Guys like LBJ, Kobe and Paul could adapt to that play because they are very special players and would use those rules to benefit them.
Porky Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Dee- you are a class act. Great comments and frank answers to some good questions. Keep up the great work!
Manfred Towes Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
Is Eddie Johnson on vacation? If so, when will he return to this space? Is this the fare to which will be “treated” if Eddie gets a job on the Suns bench?
Will Kerr allow Eddie to moonlight with HoopsHype?
Please say it may be so?
I will promptly lose this bookmark if it is the exclusive insights of Reebok & poppy-cock-pumping Dee Brown to which it promises to expose my senses.
Please say that won’t be so . . .!
Jorel Jenious Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Bird would take between 15 and 20 free throws every night. Magic, he would foul out nearly EVERY point or two guard in the league. Jordan puts up I can’t believe this Wilt like numbers. Could you image Jordan driving to the lane now, d wade lived at the line for 2 and a half seasons and he travels on EVERY spin (with a solid push off now n then…not meaning to trash Wade could’ve said the same about 3 or 4 all star guards but his commercial is on as I type this). Jordan would average 48.6 points per game.
Toddy Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
Lets go Knicks!!!
hopefully D’antoni can turn this group around. Quenten Richardson played a season in pheonex and had his best year ever. Marbury may be able to return to his Starbury form, because this sytem seems to fit him well. Eddy Curry and Zack Randolpg their defense will be moot in this new system, If and thats a big if they come into next season in shape and ready to run and gun then they will fit perfectly in the system, because both have the scoring capability. Zack also wont be able to hold the ball for 8 seconds of the sot clock which Curry , and the rest of the team should feed off of. Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, and Wilson Chandler, will have one of their best years of their young career playing under D’antoni if he another big if he plays the bench unlike he did in pheonex. David Lee jared Jeffries and Nate Robinson should also shine in this sytem because it allows them to play the way they want to…. We’ll see
and this is to Manfred Towes.. shut the fuck up youre lucky someone w/e Dee Browns caliber is writing us blogs. Keep it up Dee!!!
SUNSBSKBALL Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
UUGGGGHHHH!!!!!!
I can’t stand the thought of another former suns player with no coaching experience become coach.
Suns need a veteran coach.
Joshua Beroukhim Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
love the comments but Tim Duncan is not the best power forward ever I hate when people say that. HE is one of the top 10 but not even close to being the best to ever play the game
(SCO) Loki Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
I disagree with the comments above me. The league and it’s players would have adapted to the rules, just like they did when the players listed above came in to the league. The league was even more physical before Bird, Magic, & Jordan came into the league. The rules were changed after those players came in to the league to appease the fans, and create a more aesthetically pleasing game. Those players like King James, CP3, & Kobe were special enough to excel in any era that they played in. Good players use rule changes to their benefit, but great players inspire the league to change rules to showcase their play.
Abdul Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 6:26 pm
Tim Duncan is the best PF to ever play the game…..
Look at what the man has achieved…the list is too long.
No other PF has done what he has done.
lets take the 3 best players on his position in the past
Karl and Charles i love them both but they could not even win 1 title
Kevin Mchale- Lets say you are the GM of an nba team, who would you draft if you had the first pick…..I think I made my point.
KG would be in the mix 2 but his case is no diff. then of Karl and Charles
Little River Said,
May 15, 2008 @ 8:33 pm
Two falsehoods propagated here….
First, Duncan is a Center, not a PF. He plays the vast majority of his minutes as the Center. And McHale was not better than Duncan. Duncan is a franchise player whereas McHale was a very good #2 option.
The second issue is that when Bird, Magic, etc. first started playing, I don’t think the league was as physical as it is now, even with the recent rule changes. Look at the film from the early to mid-80s - guys were much skinnier and still relied heavily on quickness and skill. Then as the 80s progressed and especially into the 90s, weight lifting and physical play really started to take over (with the Pistons leading the way). People always like to romanticize past players and what they would do now without really remembering the facts of the time. Bird would still be very good in today’s game, but he’d be overwhelmed athletically by a lot more guys now than he was back then.
Nick Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 12:04 am
1. Tim Duncan - NOT THE BEST NOR IN THE TOP 5 PF’s of all TIME!!!
2. Suns - I think they need to embrace a ex-player coach like the Mavs did when Nellie handed over to Avery Johnson. Marc Jackson perhaps? This will allow him and Nash to run the team from the court and sideline with the same vision.
3. Knicks- Bottom line is Curry & Randolph + others need to get their FAT ace’s into shape A-SAP! Q and Marbury have already advised they are committed to this due to their history with Coach D’Antoni they know they need this!
Paul & Hornets for Champs for ‘08′
Pepe Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 4:51 am
Oh not again …if the legends played today it would be so easy for them and they would outscore everybody and bla bla bla… I’m about to have a nervous breakdown when I hear somebody saying things like that. It is in people’s nature to “idealize” things from the past, that’s about it. And the same applies to any other sport and any other activity or life situation as well. I’m pretty sure today’s sports are much more demanding in so many aspects, today’s NBA players are so much more athletic and the team effort is much more necessary today than it was years ago. Can anybody imagine today having a couple of players like MJ, Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson or Magic, who could rule the league as if they were surrounded by high school players? Because that’s what they did in their time but that would be unthinkable today. Okay, Malone got his points and fame thanks to punching everybody around with his elbows like nobody else did, so that’s the physical play you refer to? Yes, they were all certainly great players, they were the best in their era, but hey, we’re on a completely new level today and now we have dozens of players capable of doing just what these legends did. This season we had 31 players having 20+ point per game, 10 years ago it was only 12, so what was wrong back then? How about inverting all this theory about the legends - how about today’s players playing in the NBA 10-15 years ago? I guess a good half of the league from back then could leave their teams right away, because they would be no match for the modern athlete. The simplest answer is to watch a couple of current games and then see some matches from the 80’s or 90’s - I can’t help myself, it didn’t even feel that professional at that time. Everybody was all smiles, the players behaved as a couple of friends hanging out somewhere in a streetcourt. Talking about the Bird - Magic era? Hell, wake up, what was that all about? Watching 2 players compete for almost a decade? Where the heck was the rest of the league? If that happened today I’m sure the rating of the entire NBA would drop down the drain. Times changed (thankfully), we don’t lived in the era of superheroes no more. I’m happy to see that people also grew up a little from that constant search for the next MJ, that was just plain silly. People finally start to understand what a truly competitive league is all about and that’s what the NBA was missing for decades. Today the game is full of tension, competition, battle and the game is so much more joy to watch now. Hope you got my point.
Melvin Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 6:45 am
@Manfred Towes you are crazy dude.. LOL.. maybe kerr won’t allow eddie to write in here…
edward buck Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 9:10 am
I agree with most except the Big “E” Elvin Hayes was just as good as anyone and Lamar Odum is something very special.Tim Duncan is the man of today,enjoyed watching Dee play for a lot of years
chris Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 10:34 am
I think players like Nash and Nowitski would be buried on a bench somewhere during this era
jake Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 11:08 am
the further perpetuation of the myth that women’s college basketball is some bastion of fundamentals sickens me. thank you john wooden for starting this falsehood and people like dee brown for continuing it. i’d love to know how many women’s ncaa games dee watched this year start to finish and if he would really recommend that over a particular men’s game. the girls have come a long way but i’m not watching them to learn the basics.
Jorel Jenious Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 11:20 am
no idolizing guys the point is that guys like Magic, Bird, and MJ would score more. Period. Not because they are soooo much better but because of the officiating and defense. What team in their right mind would run ANY kind of zone with Bird sliding between the 3 and 4 spots.
Look at the points that have been averaged by guys in the past 4 or 5 seasons. Not only have guards been going crazy, guys are good players now when they can hit a 15ft. pull up that a professional player is suppesed to be able to hit. And I’m 28 years old, I didn’t see the bulk of Larry and Magic’s games live, but I’ve watched nearly all of the playoff ones (thanks dad).
The fact remains that the game is slightly more open to guys that can both put it on the floor and draw defenders, and hit the 15 - 20ft. shot. Which is exactly the strong suit of Bird and MJ. And Magic is just sick. In any era. There is a reason penny, jkidd, tmac, lebron, and nearly everyone else worth mentioning patterned their games after him.
What in the world would a guy like Dominque put up in a league were a hip bump on a drive is a continuation? Can you say Nique and one?
Brandon Hoffman Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 11:45 am
Dee mentioned Nash and the new rule changes.
I don’t think Nash would have had half the success he’s had if handchecking was still allowed.
It’s no coincidence that he really took off after the NBA outlawed physical defense.
Jason Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
Since we are talking about legends playing today or today’s greats playing 20 years ago, I just felt I had to make a couple points. First off, I have been a long time fan of the NBA, going back to the late 70s and I catch as much vintage games on NBA TV as I can. So I consider myself somewhat of a minor expert on the NBA over the past 30 or so years.
I thoroughly disagree with statements that the NBA is much better today versus 20-30 years ago. Yes, the athleticism appears better, but that is a result of the style of play. MJ changed the game and young swingmen coming up emulated the slashing/driving style of his first 10 seasons or so. The game and rules are now geared toward getting clear lanes for people to get up and throwdown. You have a bunch of guys in the league now that can do aerial acrobatics like Vince Carter, J-Rich, Richard Jefferson, Gerald Green … All good players but they are not MJ, not even close.
The best teams today like Boston, Detroit, San Antonio, LA Lakers, New Orleans…would not stand a chance versus teams like the Celtics or Lakers of the 80s. The passing and teamwork on those teams was far superior than anything you see today. Honestly, I don’t think any of the Bulls teams from the 90s would have beat the 80s Celtics or Lakers. I love MJ but they were just too good of teams.
Overall, the league today has lots of outstanding talent. Players like Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, KG, Steve Nash would have been greats in any era. However, the quality of team play in the NBA has dropped off significantly. It makes you wonder when European league teams beat NBA teams in exhibition games.
SuperFlyTNT Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 1:20 pm
I’m sorry Dee, but Steve Nash is the most over-rated superstar in history. I say in history, because he is the only player in history to have not 1 but 2 MVP awards and he has never even PLAYED for a ring. He gets all this praise and he is a loser. The media puts down Garrnett, Paul and Allen because they have never played in the finals and they gloss over the fact that Nash has never won anything, he’s been named alot of stuff, he’s received alot of awards, but he has never laced up his shoes, faced another opponent and won anything. Him winning MVPs in my opinion just goes to show how much of a popularity contest the award is….Nash is a Prom Queen.
scottini Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
i gotta agree with mr brown about the 80’s-90’s players dominating. in fact i think that a good amount of bench players could be starters in today’s league. the reason is simple - those guys were the best of the best. the talent pool has really thinned out today. more teams means more players. that’s why so many guys are having 20 point games these days.
shaaruun Ahmed Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
I WONDER WHY PEOPLE DON’T GIVE RODMAN A LOT OF CREDIT, IS IT BECAUSE HE WAS BAD OFF THE COURT?
Rashidi Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
“I played with McHale and he was unstoppable in the post. And was a great defender. And think of the players he played against in those days. Sir Charles, Malone, Worthy, Horace Grant, Rodman, Tom Chambers, Oakley… There is a big list of great players that played power forwards on offense and defense during the 80s and early 90s. Duncan has four rings and McHale has three rings. Love Duncan, but McHale is my man.”
Are you kidding me? It is well known that the Power Forward position did not become a great position until the 90s, after McHale was gone.
Here’s a list of the players Duncan has had to face
Karl Malone (MVP), Kevin Garnett (MVP) Dirk Nowitzki (MVP), Chris Webber, Amare Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer, Jermaine O’Neal, Rasheed Wallace, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, David West, Zach Randolph, Pau Gasol, Chris Bosh
… but let’s give credit to McHale because he faced off against one time all-stars like Horace Grant and Charles Oakley?
Duncan has four rings, is a two time MVP, three time Finals MVP, has made the all-nba team EVERY YEAR (while McHale made it ONCE in his career), and has made an all-defensive team every year.
But I guess personal accomplishments mean nothing since he was your teammate. Would you take Robert Parish over Hakeem Olajuwon too?
Stavros Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
Stars of the 80s and early 90s would struggle to score in double digits these days. The skills now have become much more sophisticated. All young players now are much quicker than those old schoolers.. much more athletic, stronger etc. Everything has progressed.. from the human DNA and the body types to a simple 3p shot accuracy.
There’s no point comparing different ages, because everything becomes better in time. Nature.
stuckey Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 3:28 pm
My gut tells me to take McHale over Duncan at power forward since he did it against alot tougher opponents. But counting awards would probably sway me to Duncan. Couldn’t lose at that position with either one.
Peterrr Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
Little River…you said the league now is more physical than in the past…you’ve GOT to be kidding. NBA is the SOFTEST league in the world right now…you can tell when NBA players go to Olympic and International play they expect the fouls they would get in the NBA and they whine and complain…thats also one of the reason USA loses. NBA = No handcheck rule? no contact at all going in the lane.
Peterrr Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Kevin Mchale had the best POST moves of any PF in the game. i would give the edge to Mchale Offensively.
Defensively i would say Duncan is better. Duncan is a GREAT help defender.
1v1 defense is good but not the best.(aka Garnett is the best PF 1v1 defender because of his quickness and length)
but i would probably choose Duncan over McHale =/
Pepe Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Thanks Rashidi, you stressed my point in a way. That’s why I think the opposite of what Dee Brown claims here is true. The guys from the past would have it much harder in today’s league and not easier as he wrote it, because the competition is so much tougher now. Yes, MJ, Magic or Bird scored much more because the game was much more offensive and defense was nowhere near as sophisticated as it is today.
@Jorel - hope we’ll agree that hitting open shots is not what makes a great basketball player, so your point is little weak here. I’m 28 years as well and also have had limited resources to watch the vintage games but enough to be able to compare things.
Kevin Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
How about a Lebron James playing in that less athletic, skinny, and isolation plagued era of Bird, Magic, and Jordan.
The entire 03 class would be legends in 2 years if they played in that era. The game has evolved… comparing past players to this era is pointless.
Benbola Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
PEPE WRITES: “This season we had 31 players having 20+ point per game, 10 years ago it was only 12, so what was wrong back then?”
Nothing was “wrong” — the rules have changed, which is Dee’s point in the article. Today you have: no hand checking, increased calling of flagrant fowls, increased calls of illegal defense, and so on. The NBA has opened up the game in ways that favor one-on-one offense, and the beneficiaries are guys like Jason Richardson, Richard Jefferson, Stephen Jackson, Vince Carter, and so on.
PEPE WRITES: “I guess a good half of the league from back then could leave their teams right away, because they would be no match for the modern athlete.”
We’re supposed to be talking about the top players of the 80s and 90s, not the bottom half of the league right? I suspect that you’re right about conditioning, and that players today are (on average) stronger and faster than 10, 15, and 20 years ago. But conditioning in itself doesn’t get you much. Look at a guy like Joey Graham on the Raptors, who is allegedly the “best athlete” on the team; what good does that do him? (note: check out Hollinger’s write-up on Graham’s profile, if you have Insider) How about Sean Marks, another former “best athlete” on the Raptors, who rode the pine for most of his career. There are plenty of good athletes in the NBA who aren’t making much of their physical edge. Which begs the question: is it really that important?
Nobody ever praised Bird for his athleticism. Regardless of fitness, what Bird, Magic, and MJ brought to the table was great basketball IQ, passion for the game, drive to win, team play, and skill. And they played in an era with much more physical play, when the opposing team was more free to hack, grab, and grind down marquee players without drawing fouls. So think about the success that these guys had in those circumstances, and apply today’s offense-favoring rules, and you can see Dee’s point. No?
jordan Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 6:50 pm
McHale better than Malone and Barkely? Laughable.
Chark Said,
May 16, 2008 @ 10:54 pm
I strongly suggest you get more from B L A C K W H I T E K I S S .C O M where you can meet many cute sport babes, both black and white, who love sports very much.
young marlowe Said,
May 17, 2008 @ 3:13 am
i luv the points yall made its a big difference when the guys giving hard fouls are kurt rambis and charles oakley i dont even think they would make the league today lol………and on top of that i argue this point all the time mike wouldnt be the same airness running into these guys now a days think kobe has to go form chasing ray allen to guarding mello tmac lebron paul pierce wade and even guys like mike redd ginobili and gill arenas ……mikes top competition craig ehlo roy tarpley gerald wilkins john starks joe dumars even tho he [played good d he just physically couldnt check mike and none of the guys mike played against could go off for forty or fifty any night so stop wit the back in the day garbage timm duncan and kg would flat out kill barkley parish mchale or whoever so im never impressed wit that back in the day shhhhhh and for the record its much harder to hit a shot with someone flying andf contesting than it is to hit a shot where u have 3 full secs to set up ……later
Top Gun Said,
May 17, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Nash deserves to be in the All NBA team not the All NBA defensive team, so I don’t see why your trying to put him down. He was voted by coached to be a reserve in the all star team, not by lame writers who ask lame questions.
king Said,
May 17, 2008 @ 9:12 am
There are some really stupid people on here including dee brown. C’mon what the hell does dee brown know? Most players that have played the game(and were or are good-unlike dee brown) have said Tim Duncan is the best to have played the game. And most people who play the pf position and are good, end up plaqying the c spot as well nowdays. For you morons who have TD just in the top ten, what r u basing your biased opinion on?
MJ Said,
May 17, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Dee, I wouldn’t exactly say the game would be easier nowadays. Yes, I would live at the foul line IF I would be able to get there.
Remember, defense isn’t what they used to be. They are much, much tougher today than in the 90’s.
Just an example of how players are much better today than the 90’s….
MY toughest workout back in the day is just an everyday average for Kobe.
Just my two cents, Dee.
poo Said,
May 17, 2008 @ 4:46 pm
Manfred Towes u are jaded man. Eddie johnson makes so many mistakes on his blog i’d be gald if he was gone. That said, he will never get the phoenix job, or any other head coaching job because he is really a shooting coach, and that’s all he’ll ever be, an ols sad shooting coach, not even that good of one
Pepe Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 6:27 am
@ Benbola: Okay, I see your point. It’s actually pretty much what Dee said, only rephrased. So once again - I’m not taking anything away from those legends of 80’s and 90’s. Yes, they were very smart and used their bball IQ very well but - I believe - only because they were allowed to do so. You say the rules these days are much more offense-driven - but why? Ain’t it because the defense has got so sophisticated over the years and the scoring dropped so much that something had to be done about it?
Also, I think you’re not right about the one-on-one offense. For example the introduction of zone defense (thankfully) was a major change in the NBA and it effectively doubled the necessity for team effort rather than individual heroism.
As for that conditioning - yes, it makes a huge difference, believe it or not. Kevin wrote it just perfect right before you, please read that again. Players from that era would be erased when playing today just because they wouldn’t even be able to keep the pace, they would look rather like - sorry for saying that - a degraded caricature of bball player. Today you’re in for a real challenge almost every game, in the 90’s, for example, the only question was what will be the next all-time record the Bulls will break. And the same applies pretty much to every other sport - everything today is so much faster, tougher and more competitive.
The game has tremendously evolved and although we should have a lot of respect for those who once played a significant role in that evolution process, we can’t hamper down the progress and hold onto the past, the league is in good hands now and we should enjoy each bit of it.
Pepe Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 6:40 am
Regarding that Duncan/McHale turmoil around here - yes, there’s absolutely no doubt Tim is the best PF ever. Actually, it’s quite easy to say “the best ever” but I need to give it a thought or two when thinking in terms of the present PFs, the league is just at such a high level now. Tim has got some strong competition out there now but yes, he’s still the best of them all
Todd Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 9:10 am
I think a few people on here are greatly underestimating the talent of Kevin McHale. I am, for one, glad that Brown acknowledges how great he was and for putting his name in the conversation among great power forwards of all time. Even having growing up in LA hating him with tremendous passion, I had to recognize he was a truly remarkable player. If I were starting a team and could select from all of the best power forwards, he would easily be my selection. Does this mean he was the greatest individual talent at the position? Not necessarily, but I do think he’s the embodiment of what you want in a power forward.
Consider his bona fides:
The Physical
He was 6′10 with a ridiculously long wingspan, incredibly strong, soft hands and fleet-of-foot. While he may not be as “athletic” as some others, he more than made up for it with good balance, incredible footwork, and physical strength.
Defense
He was without question the greatest defensive player at the position (Duncan included, because McHale was more versatile). He was the anchor of one of the greatest defenses in the history of the league. McHale was equally good minding centers like Kareem as he was at handling his opposing position player (Brown mentions some of the great PF’s he matched up with but fails to note players like Kareem, Moses Malone and Bill Laimbeer who he routinely guarded for long stretches). His length and physicality gave his opposition fits in one-on-one matchups and he was an extremely good help defender.
Rebounding
He was a tremendous rebounder. There is no player in the NBA today at any position that is his equal in this regard and few power forwards ever have been as good on the boards as he was. And certainly no rebounder of his quality shared the rest of his skill set. Barkley was a phenomenal rebounder but his lack of size was his undoing in other aspects of the game (particularly defense). Rodman was possibly better on the boards but had no offensive game to speak of. He was also a skilled outlet passer off the glass, a skill almost completely absent in today’s game.
Half-court Offense
McHale was almost unstoppable in the low post. With his long arms and high release, his shot was nearly as impossible to block as Kareem’s sky hook. Only Olajuwon had perhaps a more effective jump shot in the post (and his had the unfortunate effect of taking him out of offensive rebounding opportunities because it was a fall-away). McHale could also effectively step out and reliably hit a 15-17 footer from the high post and baseline to spread the offense and open up the middle. This is where his offensive game added a component Duncan’s doesn’t really have. He also had incredibly good hands and court awareness which was particularly useful when playing with an amazing passer like Larry Bird.
Transition
Few remember, but the Celtics transition game was incredible - likely because it was overshadowed by the historic greatness of the Lakers at that time. But the Celtics fastbreak was a thing of beauty and far superior to any in the game today - including the Suns when they were at their fun-and-gun best. While not the quickest player, McHale could get out on the break (if he wasn’t starting it) and was an expert finisher.
Intangibles
First, like it or not, he was vicious - tough as they come, both mentally and physically. He simply could not be intimidated and did plenty of that himself. For all of Garnett’s accolades for being tough, he’s yet to prove that he actually is in any meaningful way. You would never see McHale settle for perimeter shots or back away from a scrum. He was also plenty happy to be the complementary player a PF is supposed to be, yet more than willing to take shots in pressure situations (qualities he shares with Duncan). It’s a reality that no power forward has ever led his team to the promised land as the #1 option. Not Barkley, not Karl Malone, Not Garnett. Nobody. Part of being a great power forward is accepting your primary responsibilities (defense, rebounding, secondary scoring) and being supremely effective in fulfilling them. In my opinion, no one has ever done that better than McHale.
Does that make him the greatest “player” to play the position? I don’t know. But it makes him my first choice to fill that role.
Todd Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 9:25 am
Oh, and those of you who claim “old schoolers” like Bird and Magic would have trouble scoring today, I think you’re greatly overestimating the talents of the average player in the league today and grossly underestimating how good Bird and Magic were. Not to mention other old schooler scorers like Isiah Thomas, Julius Erving, George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Alex English, and Adrian Dantley. Not to mention serious old schoolers like Jerry West.
Cray Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 1:13 pm
Malone and Barkley are better than Duncan and all three are on a higher level then McHale. Getting to the NBA finals was a cakewalk in the 80s when compared to the 90s.
MJ had to get past the Pistons in the early 90s and then with the NY Knicks and the Pacers.
The West had Stockton/Malone Jazz, Barkley/KJ Suns, The Admiral/Spurs, Shaq Kobe/Lakers, Drexler/Blazers, Drexler, Hakeem/ Rockets, Payton/Kemp Sonics.
It seemed to mean more to get to the Finals in the 90s. Now we get Dirk’s Mavs and the San Antonio Sterns. Taking away hand checking has let guards get into the lane and live at the line.
Stats time: MJ averaged 6.4 FT attempts per 36 min. Dwayne Wade averages 8.7 FT attempts per 36 min. Keep in mind that everyone complained the Jordan got all the calls from the refs and this made his numbers better. Jordan would have averaged 50 pts a game today in a league where everyone is afraid to defend a player and you can get to the line for any physical contact.
In conclusion I do love how competitive the NBA is today and that there is no clear favorite to win the Title. There are more talented players in the league today then there used to be. I just wish the game flowed better today. I hate spending half the game watching free throw attempts.
tony slaney Said,
May 18, 2008 @ 5:12 pm
I agree with much of what Dee said.
The guy who made the comment about “Reebok & poppy-cock-pumping Dee Brown”, is most likely a teenager, or someone with teenage thinking, who thinks, And 1 players are better than NBA players.
How the world, does the fact that he wore Reeboks when he played, invalidate his opinion?
Do us all a favor, Mr. Manfred Towes.
Hurry up and lose this bookmark
Michael Kukich Said,
May 19, 2008 @ 3:22 am
Speaking of Nash, the addition of Shaq only accelerated the decline in Nash’s game. The lightening-quick pace of D’Antoni’s style highlighted the best part of Nash’s game which made the Suns winners and that made Nash’s lack of defense acceptable. But now with an almost walk it down and lob it into Shaq approach or like when the ran the offense through Diaw, Nash many times becomes a jumpshooter who can’t play defense. Thats one of the reasons why I don’t like the trade, it takes away Nash’s greatest attribute and since Shaq doesn’t have any lift and can’t make lay-ups or free throws, whats the point of lobbing the ball into him?
I think D’Antoni didn’t like how severly he had to slow down and alter his style for Shaq with mixed results and with Kerr meddling in his business and D’Antoni thinking Kerr was messing with his money just decided the time was right for another fat payday somewhere else.
Peterrr Said,
May 19, 2008 @ 6:10 am
We have 12 Athletic guys on the USA team that CAN NOT beat what? argentina, spainish GREEK Squad? come on now people Athleticism isn’t every thing sure when you get a guy like michael jordan who have Both fundamentals and Athleticism He was Unmatched that was what made him GREAT/BEST. in the late 80s most players can actually make their open shots(including Centers)
tony slaney Said,
May 19, 2008 @ 9:07 am
Tim Duncan is an exceptional player.
But, lets be honest.
He’s a center who calls himself a power forward because, he doesn’t want to guard centers.
Look at how he posts up, low post, back to the basket.
Hes the final line of defense. (shot blocker)
Isn’t that what a center does.
One thing I like anout Duncan is how, he disproves that, faster, stronger, more athletic concept that so many youngsters, (including many whose posted in this thread) embrace.
Duncan is not athletic, his success is the result of his mastey of FUNDAMENTALS and footwork.
I like what the guy above said.
All these athletes, but, when was the last time we won a gold medal, or a World championship??
Most of today’s NBA players would rather make the top 10 on Sportscenter, than win the game.
Stefan Said,
May 19, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
Hey, c’mon….that’s not reallly MJ responding on May 17th? Is it?….NAw….I don’t buy it. Money’s got his hands full trying to build a team, preparing for the draft lottery. Some poseur is posing as Jordan and leaving comments, right? Heh, what do I know. If it’s true, if that is you sir, I am both honoured and humbled to be posting within the same forum.
To you, Mr. Dee Brown I respectfully disagree with some of your points but value your imput nonetheless. I hate disrespectful people like King or Manfred who just hate for no reason. Your comments are insightful and interesting. Thank you.
The dudes claiming Steve Nash is something less than what he is, all I can do is laugh at yall. Are you kidding me? Have you seen the man penetrate and dish? have you seen him hit clutch three after clutch three? Have you seen him move the ball with reckless abandon, at a pace that would have you think he’s out of control, only to see him make a perfect play for a teammate or finish at the rim with accuracy and made layups every goddamn time? Fools….just fools.
I don’t like to play the whole “best PG ever” game. I truly believe that Steve Nash is up there with some of the most important players to have played the game. But you can’t compare the 60’s to the 80’s to the 2000’s. The league and the game have changed over time for a reason. The players playing in the league are selected and developped in order to play the game of their era. So this whole McCale vs. Duncan argument is pointless.
Thank you for reading,
peace,
Stefan
PS- BTW….I still want to know if that was really the true MJ!
JERMAINE THE KOBE FAN Said,
May 19, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
The NBA in the 80’s and 90’s was overrated to me! especially the defense! You couldn’t double a player without the ball it was illegal! MJ,BIRD,MAGIC, ETC. really benefited with this. For example look how paul pierce play off of lebron that would be illgel during jordan time! Imagine they couldn’t double until he got the ball or even cheat off on him before he got the ball! I never seen Michael Jordan double like Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Iverson. When Jordan play he was always taller then the player was hold him. The guard’s today are waaaay better now then when Jordan. During the Jordan era the superstars was mostly big men! Magic and Jordan was before their time! John Starks, Craig Ehlo, Hearshy Hawkins, etc. Think about it! Remember, During the Magic, Bird, and Isiah prime, Jordan had no rings until they got old! Since they can double you without the ball make it hard for Superstars to take easy shot’s like 80’s and 90’s had!
illest Said,
May 20, 2008 @ 9:43 am
players today are more atlhetic today but are no way better than the 80s or 90s. The game is so much easier today. You cant hand check, you cant impede a players progress to the basket and there are flagrant fouls. Jordan would average 45 today. The players back then used to fight and hard foul you constantly. Now you have zones and the players today cant shoot the mid range shot. Every game is like a 3 point contest.
Who is 7 foot with post moves, a mid range jumper, blocks shots and plays defense? And average 20 and 10 for a career? Thats Akeem, Robinson, Ewing, Jabbar. Its also Tim Duncan. I know everyone says he is a power forward but Timmy is a center. Everyone says hes a power forward because he was when Robinson was there. But Duncan does everything a center does. Thats the problem with the NBA. These guys think they are something they are not therefore not showing their true game. Garnett and Dirk think they are guards or small forward with their fadeaways and absent post play. Why be 7 foot if you are going to fade? They have no post games at all. They could be so much better if they posted. Plus Dirk shoots 90 from the line so it only makes sense that he takes advantage of his height. These players today dont do that. I see 6′4 guards guarding 6′8 guards and the 6′8 guards back them down and use the height advantage. Todays players dont understand how to play the game.
chris Said,
May 20, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
if he is so clutch why does nash rely on others to make a shot. Point gaurds like him have great coaches and players but get all the credit. He is a loser and will always be one. The Great ….. Hype
JERMAINE THE KOBE FAN Said,
May 21, 2008 @ 2:08 am
Why some of y all saying the game is much easier then the 80’s and 90’s! I remember McHale critize Jordan titles run saying the league got soft, and their don’t play defense in the 90’s! Michael Jordan responded and said it’s not my fault that they don’t play defense! The hand checking thang is overatted,what about you couldn’t double a player without the ball it would be call illegal defense! Hand checking are for those who can’t play defense or to slow to move their feet! I personelly don’t handcheck when i play defense because it coward defense to me! I like to move my feet like you suppose to! What coache’s always say move your feet! Just look the stars of today having two player’s on them without the ball that would be illegal in the 80’s and 90’s. Kobe score 56 points in three quarters and 42 points in a half vs Jordan wizards when hand checking was legal!
Pepe Said,
May 21, 2008 @ 3:26 am
@Peterrr: I can’t believe I’m still reading the same silly arguments over and over. Okay, the USA team experienced those couple of tournaments lately where they didn’t dominate. But why? Isn’t it because the game of basketball has evolved GLOBALLY? Obviously, I wasn’t speaking only about the US bball, if you happened to misunderstood, I thought it’s just that obvious.
Secondly, no matter what anybody has to say about this, I believe the world championships have significantly lost their value, especially for the US players. But this is pretty much the case in many other sports. I understand that the only real thing they care about is the NBA title and the job they are truly paid for. When they always say “oh yes, it’s a honour for me to represent our country”, they say it just because they have to. But in the end, they either prefer not to go at all or they go and play at 50%. It’s exactly the same, for example, with the NHL - practically every single player (worldwide) prefers to stick to his team and his league and just skip the world champs. Even if their season is over, they rather say they can’t join the team because of this and that. So that’s why the former dream teams had their success, because they valued it and tried hard to get it, for whatever was their reason; the modern players simply don’t and you can’t do a thing about it. But hey, what would you rather watch, quality NBA playoffs or some 2 weeks of world champs that are not even properly televised?
Playmaker Said,
May 21, 2008 @ 4:58 am
I know Duncan is a gifted player but he has always been surrounded by much better talent than Kevin Garnett. One on one KG destroys Duncan with his quickness, outside shooting, and passing. There is nothing Duncan can do better. Period. Duncan has the awards but he was blessed to walk into San Antonio with David Robinson, then were smart enough to surround him with Manu and Parker, but he isnt even the first scoring option on his team. KG will be in the finals this year because he has a supporting cast. If you see the two go at it in the Finals, KG will have his day. Its nice to measure how good a player is by championships but even MJ couldnt win without a good supporting cast. Kobe’ team was a joke before Gasol joined them.
Peterrr Said,
May 21, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
i would rather watch World Champions or the Olympics. im waiting for the Olympics. Athletes nowadays have no Fundementals . i mean i understand because they are sooo athletic that they dont need the fundementals to dominate(aka Lebron). but give lebron credit he is learning and improving. where as International players are taught to SHOOT the ball first then ratherA lot of USA players are into showboating, look after the AND1s and Harlem Glodetrotters. When you watch Spain or Argentina play. first thing you think is FUNDEMENTALS. its fundementals vs. USA(big,fast,strong,athletes) bottom line.
in general
todays players = good 1v1 players
80s players = good TEAM players
Mike E Said,
May 22, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
truly great players can usuallly play in any era. yeah a few might not be as dominant but they would hold a spot down. in Ball you need a certain level of athleticism yeah but what makes Ball so different from the other sports is that if you’re a baller, you can play no matter what. everybody knows those few older cats that still come to the gym and get their money. MJ scored 50 against these same “far superior” athletes when he was 40. You telling me a young Mike couldn’t do the same damage in today’s game on a regular basis? Olajuwon? Robinson? Isaiah? don’t get caught up in eras, cause we’ve all seen players whose talents go across time. watch a bulls/knicks series from ‘92 and try say that wasn’t some serious, fast, paced, athletic sht going on out there. don’t let the short shorts fool you, it made LA look less unathletic when they played with ‘em earlier this year against Boston. and um, I’d take Duncan.